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Re: The benefits of devolution

Jeremy

If you're saying teaching starts with parents and is supplemented by teachers then I'd agree. My point about socialism is about the state per se. Its not the best at delivering education and the continuing monitoring and control doesn't actually makes things better. I've continually argued for the reduction in size of state on the basis that the state doesn't really know better and hinders rather than helps. The socialist argument is that this government assumes that we can all be equal in terms of ability and that is just not the case. You've even suggested this yourself on that some children hold back others.

The answer is to look at what others are doing however it is not going to happen as we have politicians who place political dogma over practical application. Welsh labour aren't interested in making things better, they have had 14 years to make things better and on every single measure Wales is falling further behind. Despite the failure of left wing thinking in developing Wales the welsh will never consider alternatives. Therefore the electorate and the electorate alone has to take responsibility for the failure our nation has become and the fact our children are amongst the worst in the developed world.

Welsh language schools score more highly than English language schools. Why not make education on the medium of welsh only with English taught as a first language at primary education. Secondary education could be a mix of both languages. Then welsh isn't taught as a language and neither is English. Hence no time is wasted as claimed by some. Bilingualism early on helps become better at other languages later. Think how the Dutch and Danish have a high incidence of English fluency at an early age. The added benefit is that it would stop the perennial welsh language fascists going on relentlessly about a complete non subject

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra education begins with parents and too many ignore, maybe a minority, or do not make much effort with their children. That has a huge impact in the UK.

Even with the Comprehensive system selection, grading by ability in Maths or English has always taken place, difference in ability has always been accepted, equality in access to a quality education is the problem. The state is not the problem in Finnish education and does not have to be here either.

I agree that a bilingual education system for all in Wales would probably be best
in the long term but lets face it highly unlikely to happen.

The idea that we can learn from others is probably, with respect to PISA results, flawed, unless we learn from birth the Chinese language.

Author Malcolm Gladwell mentions the success of the Chinese at Maths in Outliers. His premise is finding out why some people in society seem to succeed above others. One chapter titled "Rice Paddies and Math Tests" seemed especially relevant to Chinese culture and the Pisa results:

"Take a look at the following list of numbers: 4, 8, 5, 3, 9, 7, 6. Read them out loud. Now look away and spend twenty seconds memorizing that sequence before saying them out loud again. If you speak English, you have about a 50 percent chance of remembering that sequence perfectly. If you're Chinese, though, you're almost certain to get it right every time."

The reason behind this, Gladwell writes, is because humans can store digits in a memory loop that last only about two seconds. In Chinese languages, numbers are shorter, allowing Chinese to both speak and remember those numbers in two seconds -- a fraction of the time it takes to remember those numbers in English.

Moreover, Asian languages such as Chinese, Japanese and Korean have a more logical counting system compared to the irregular ways that numerals are spoken in English. As Gladwell writes: Eleven is ten-one (十一 in Chinese), twelve is ten-two (十二) and thirteen is ten-three (十三) and so on.

Children in Asia thus learn to count faster than English-speaking children. Even fractions are easier for Asian children because they are more easily understood and conceptual. For example one-half (fifty percent) is understood as 百分之五十 (bǎi fēn zhī wǔ shí) or literally, fifty parts out of 100 parts. And because math is more easily understood, Asian children "get" math faster than their Western counterparts. This, Gladwell writes, has nothing to do with some sort of innate Asian proclivity for math.

Still the problem in the UK is we learn for the Test rather than learn how to think.

Re: The benefits of devolution

here is an interesting article. Basically it sums up just how Wales has changed in education, economy and health since devolution. Despite all of this, some people will still vote Labour or left wing alternatives.

We need a strong right wing business friendly party that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does. We also need to start engaging the private sector in our healthcare system in an effort to increase productivity and remove the inefficiencies that blight the public sector.

Re: The benefits of devolution

A decade ago I would have got rather annoyed and defensive reading such an article. But no longer. It's a sign of my disillusionment with 14 years of under performance from Welsh Labour in devolved Government that I have begun to welcome articles like this (whether sneering in nature or otherwise) to be published to (hopefully) create a sense of shame!

Tis a pity however, that the author still has the nasty party DNA in his veins, as evidenced by comments about tax takes from alcohol etc.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra

We need a strong right wing business friendly party that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does. We also need to start engaging the private sector in our healthcare system in an effort to increase productivity and remove the inefficiencies that blight the public sector.



When has there ever been a right wing government that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does? I think you may need to create a new political entity and I would be interested to see how you would get on.

Just how would the private sector increase productivity in the healthcare system and reduce inefficiencies? Can you give examples?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra

We need a strong right wing business friendly party that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does. We also need to start engaging the private sector in our healthcare system in an effort to increase productivity and remove the inefficiencies that blight the public sector.



When has there ever been a right wing government that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does? I think you may need to create a new political entity and I would be interested to see how you would get on.

Just how would the private sector increase productivity in the healthcare system and reduce inefficiencies? Can you give examples?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Rhodri
Jantra

We need a strong right wing business friendly party that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does. We also need to start engaging the private sector in our healthcare system in an effort to increase productivity and remove the inefficiencies that blight the public sector.



When has there ever been a right wing government that puts educating our children amongst the heart of everything it does? I think you may need to create a new political entity and I would be interested to see how you would get on.

Just how would the private sector increase productivity in the healthcare system and reduce inefficiencies? Can you give examples?


I see you're somebody who doesn't think change is possible. have you read 'who moved my cheese?'

the Conservatives are very much pro education - that is why they have created free schools to release the education system from the shackles of state interference. In the UK those schools outside of the state system do better than those within it. This is proof that the state most certainly does not know best. Yet despite this some still think only the state should provide education. What is clear from the recent PISA results is that the state is extremely poor at providing a good education. We need to free schools and allow them to set their own agenda within a loose framework. it works elsewhere but here we have people who prefer political dogma over improving results.

regarding your last point...read about Hinchingbrooke and how it has been turned around since it has been run by Circle. It is a well known fact that the UK public sector is extremely inefficient and bloated - too many people not generating enough output. It is not productive, it does not generate wealth it is a huge cost that the nation just cannot afford. The private sector would deliver the same services for a fraction of the cost. Again some people are so attached to political dogma that they would prefer to see failing services and falling living standards than to entertain there may be a better way.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Exactly! No wonder there have been some failures due to the half empty glass comments on this forum.

Thankfully the percentage of the welsh population support devolution and shall continue to inspire and be optimistic about our future.

Devolution surely must be a positive thing I just do not understand the negative comments I mean seriously would you rather a far away Parliament decide the future of Wales. (Parent says to child I know what's best so I make the rules in this house!)

Seriously how about not being so over critical and lets talk about how decisions can help our future,lets start talking about the positives!! I for one can see the difference since devolution all began. Excuse my grammar not my strongest point.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Dwain
Exactly! No wonder there have been some failures due to the half empty glass comments on this forum.

Thankfully the percentage of the welsh population support devolution and shall continue to inspire and be optimistic about our future.

Devolution surely must be a positive thing I just do not understand the negative comments I mean seriously would you rather a far away Parliament decide the future of Wales. (Parent says to child I know what's best so I make the rules in this house!)

Seriously how about not being so over critical and lets talk about how decisions can help our future,lets start talking about the positives!! I for one can see the difference since devolution all began. Excuse my grammar not my strongest point.


Bangor is further from Cardiff than Chepstow is from London. Where do you draw the line?

also, you're suggesting that one group of people who live to the left of an imaginary line drawn on a map know how to run a country better than a group of people who live just to the right of the same imaginary line. that's rather absurd.

the aim should be less government not more, less state not more, more responsibility for self rather than reliance on the state.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Bla Bla Bla... seriously now in large bold writing what would you do????


Please with some curiosity what is your back ground/profession

Re: The benefits of devolution

Is this a direct answer to whether devolution is good for wales or is it an attack on labour policies?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Dwain
Bla Bla Bla... seriously now in large bold writing what would you do????


Please with some curiosity what is your back ground/profession


chartered accountant, financial services specifically derivatives and reinsurance.

You must be new here, my opinion regarding the oppressive nature of the state is well documented. for a start, i'd get rid of the Senedd. Then i'd make any form of Nationlism illegal - one race is not better than another nor is it equipped to make better decisions than any other. to suggest being born one side of an artificial line on a map qualifies you to make better decisions than someone who wasn't is quite possibly the most ridiculous notion someone could ever suggest. We are in the 21st century having sent man to the moon and yet we have some who think qualification to run a country is best decided by where someone was born. In my view the only criteria is whether they are up to the job and not what language they speak nor where they were born on this lump of rock that floats without purpose through the eternal void.

have a look at an image of the earth against the backdrop of the rest of the universe then come back and tell me nationalism isn't the most petty thing man can construct.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Dwain
Is this a direct answer to whether devolution is good for wales or is it an attack on labour policies?


thus far aren't they the one and same thing?

Re: The benefits of devolution

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/labour-course-win-seven-more-6392714

This is depressing!

Re: The benefits of devolution

Huw
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/labour-course-win-seven-more-6392714

This is depressing!


I wouldn't worry too much. no party has ever one an election based on a mid term poll. In fact, two thirds of mid term polls call it wrong regarding the result of the next general election.

When it comes down to it most people will realise that the Tories have stabilised the economy and whilst implementing some difficult policies they are doing it for the long term benefit.

The real issue is the cost of living crisis. However, if you factor in that taxes have fallen (certainly direct taxes) then whilst wages may have remained flat-ish, take home pay has increased due to less money being deducted at source. The Tories need to push this if they are to win the cost of living argument. It hasn't totally eroded inflation since 2010, but the difference between the rise in average take home pay and the rise in inflation is much less than the difference between the rise in average earnings and the rise in inflation.

Re: The benefits of devolution

The effects of direct tax and benefit changes differ substantially across the population.

If you are low paid, cuts to means-tested benefits and tax credits will outweigh the higher personal allowance.

If you are high paid you are also paying more tax as the higher rate threshold has been frozen. And if you have children and have somneone earning more than £50k a year you've lost child benefit. Thats about £1,000 a year lost for the first child, and £700 a year for second and subsequent children.

If you are childless and earning betweeen about £9,000 and £20,000 a year, you've gained from the higher personal allowance and pay less NICs. If you have between £20,000 and £42,000 you've gained from the personal allowance but pay more NICs... and at the top are probably worse off.

I'm not going to comment on whether this government has the right approach to cutting the deficit or not. But the increase in the personal allowance isn't the only change to direct taxes and benefits that affects 'take home income' of working families. For poorer ones, those with children, and those at the top of the income distribution, changes to tax probably make the falls in take-home income bigger than the falls in pre-tax income.. its 'middle earners' without kids, and especially couples without kids that have gained most...

Re: The benefits of devolution

Its about time the squeezed middle benefitted.

Seriously though, my statement was high level looking at the average. Across the various demographics as always you will get winners and losers. My point was that whilst inflation has eroded living standards due to flat wages, the decrease in tax rates have gone someway to offset that. Other factors, such as tax credits (which in itself is absurd) are also a factor (as you have said)

I'm also not sure that the very top earners are worse off. The top rate of tax has reduced by 5%. So they've lost the personal allowance but that's only 9k of income no longer taxed at marginal rate, they may have lost chb too but its hardly noticeable to high earners (who are morally bereft if they claim it)

Re: The benefits of devolution

Reading ccmb there were a couple of threads after last week's PISA results does anyone feel people are finally waking up to Welsh Labour's failure?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Huw
Reading ccmb there were a couple of threads after last week's PISA results does anyone feel people are finally waking up to Welsh Labour's failure?


unlikely. you could stick a red rosette on a floret of cauli and it would landslide through Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. Anything that stops their reliance on benefits and welfare is a no no.

Re: The benefits of devolution

I expect that Jantra is about to go on bended knee to eat humble pie and give a grovelling apology to the great Marxist Edwina who single handedly has turned the Welsh economy around into one of the fastest growing regions in the UK. We might still be last but the GVA figures are closing in on the best.

Alternatively you can think that the statistics are a load of crock and show nothing much more than a slight bounce on rebased foundations resting on quicksand, liquifaction will follow shortly.


Re: The benefits of devolution

When you're starting from a smallest base then its easy to have the fastest growth. When gva is par with the second worst performing region we can celebrate

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra
When you're starting from a smallest base then its easy to have the fastest growth. When gva is par with the second worst performing region we can celebrate


It has been suggested that whilst we all wish to live on the top of the mountain, the real joy is actually climbing it.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Rhodri
Jantra
When you're starting from a smallest base then its easy to have the fastest growth. When gva is par with the second worst performing region we can celebrate


It has been suggested that whilst we all wish to live on the top of the mountain, the real joy is actually climbing it.


When do we set off from base camp then?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra
Huw
Reading ccmb there were a couple of threads after last week's PISA results does anyone feel people are finally waking up to Welsh Labour's failure?


unlikely. you could stick a red rosette on a floret of cauli and it would landslide through Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. Anything that stops their reliance on benefits and welfare is a no no.


Didn't Blaenau Gwent recently return Independent's for both Westminster and the Assembly?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Karl
Jantra
Huw
Reading ccmb there were a couple of threads after last week's PISA results does anyone feel people are finally waking up to Welsh Labour's failure?


unlikely. you could stick a red rosette on a floret of cauli and it would landslide through Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. Anything that stops their reliance on benefits and welfare is a no no.


Didn't Blaenau Gwent recently return Independent's for both Westminster and the Assembly?


The incumbents Nick smith and alun Davies are welsh labour. I understand your point though. However my point was that some in Wales will vote labour no matter how abysmal their performance is at government

Re: The benefits of devolution

I agree. The fact that there isn't a credible opposition has much to do with it. The Lib Dems are a minority party appealing mostly to students and gentlemen farmers, Plaid are inextricably linked in the minds of many with the Welsh language and the Tories are a toxic brand no matter how unfair that may be to some people.

The Tories need a re-brand in Wales (I'm not suggesting they change colours from blue to red). The pick up seats in either the Costa Geriactica in north Wales where you have a significant amount of retiree's from over the border or places like Monmouth, the Vale or Cardiff North which are about the only places in Wales that correspond with the traditional middle class area's that are ten a penny in England. They simply don't appeal to the vast majority of Wales because in the minds of the voters they are associated with something that is quite alien to them.

The failing with Plaid is that they are appealing to a Wales they think exists rather than a Wales that actually does exist and that is exactly the same as the Tories. They can't sell their brand here the way they can sell it in the Home Counties because it's different and the people are different. They need to recognise this. I'm not a Tory but I do think a stronger Tory party in Wales may keep Labour on it's toes at least. As it is they seem content to be a permanent minority party here shouting from the sidelines.

The other failure is the weakness of civic society in Wales. Labour should be receiving a sustained and ferocious kicking over the Pisa results from the opposition and all parts of civic society. It should be vicious, personalised and relentless. The Senedd should be picketed and egged and Huw Edwards should be doorstepping the Minister for Education and demanding answers. There should be a lengthy examination by the press and television over what has gone wrong and Estyn should be hauled over the coals. Labour should be terrified about failing to improve Pisa rankings because they have been traumatised by the beating they have suffered. As it stands they are back in their comfort zone after a week. Business as usual.

Re: The benefits of devolution

I'll buy the eggs. Meet me at the Senedd at midnight.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Wizard
I'll buy the eggs. Meet me at the Senedd at midnight.
that will be 11 hours before the am's start work and twelve hours after they finish.

Re: The benefits of devolution

did somebody mention tax?


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/billions-pounds-taxpayers-cash-lost-6396675


I reckon the headline may be a bit misleading as the issue is actually nonpayment / collection of taxes ... and presumably taxes due from the private sector as well as being another example of inefficiencies and incompetence in the public sector?

No doubt some may feel that G4S, et al could deliver these functions more cost-effectively.



The (Welsh) Conservative MP quoted in this article suggests that the fault lies in a Government which is too large and complex: he's referring to the UK Govt and I could that extrapolate that Devolution provides smaller Government ...

Re: The benefits of devolution

What a crap website Wales online is amazing how infrequently they update stories their business and politics stories compared to rugby no wonder the public doesn't know crap the welsh government is when their the biggest news service in Wales.

Re: The benefits of devolution

I agree. It's a bit analogous to Cardiff airport - it's there physically but it's not worth bothering with.

Re: The benefits of devolution

@Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I posted this elsewhere so can't be bothered typing it again


The governments annual budget is around 700bn so 35bn is around 5%. This is comparable with expected bad debt in the private sector. The second issue is that its based on the tax gap - a guess made by HMRC on what it thinks it should be collecting. This is based on many things but still remains only a guess. The final issue is that society is defrauding the government by 13.2bn although estimates put this closer to 20bn. This is hardly governments fault.

The fraud has always been there and so has the so called tax gap. The tax gap is made up of many things but mainly its where business taxes can't be paid due to insolvency. So its hardly missing tax just tax that cannot be collected.

This more sensationalist journalism without really looking to get behind the numbers to see what they really mean. The figures are shocking, but as Barry Dragon (sic) says, it's not a new problem and its actually getting better under this government. The issue is that public accounts are now placed under much greater scrutiny given the uk's financial position.



regarding G4S, Serco et al. you will notice that they have been stripped of their contracts with respect to tagging. This is the free market in operation. If you don't provide the required service your customer is free to choose to move elsewhere. We see no such freedom of choice with the poorly executed public services we have to suffer in the UK and Wales. we are bereft of decent public services on a par with Germany despite paying similar taxation. The evidence is irrefutable that the state is not the best at providing services and that the market is better at allocating resources in the best possible way.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra
@Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I posted this elsewhere so can't be bothered typing it again


The governments annual budget is around 700bn so 35bn is around 5%. This is comparable with expected bad debt in the private sector. The second issue is that its based on the tax gap - a guess made by HMRC on what it thinks it should be collecting. This is based on many things but still remains only a guess. The final issue is that society is defrauding the government by 13.2bn although estimates put this closer to 20bn. This is hardly governments fault.

The fraud has always been there and so has the so called tax gap. The tax gap is made up of many things but mainly its where business taxes can't be paid due to insolvency. So its hardly missing tax just tax that cannot be collected.

This more sensationalist journalism without really looking to get behind the numbers to see what they really mean. The figures are shocking, but as Barry Dragon (sic) says, it's not a new problem and its actually getting better under this government. The issue is that public accounts are now placed under much greater scrutiny given the uk's financial position.



regarding G4S, Serco et al. you will notice that they have been stripped of their contracts with respect to tagging. This is the free market in operation. If you don't provide the required service your customer is free to choose to move elsewhere. We see no such freedom of choice with the poorly executed public services we have to suffer in the UK and Wales. we are bereft of decent public services on a par with Germany despite paying similar taxation. The evidence is irrefutable that the state is not the best at providing services and that the market is better at allocating resources in the best possible way.


The tax gap is in the region of £32-£40 billion but could be larger dependent upon methodology used to estimate the gap or who you take the advice from, HMRC split it roughly as:
16% criminal attack
14% evasion
16% hidden economy
14% avoidance
13% legal interpretation
12% non-payment
9% failure to take reasonable care
6% error

In theory all these elements can be reduced but the reality is that the state is so large and complex that most of these areas of loss will continue in some form or other. For example whatever political parties say it is unlikely that legislation will get simpler, lucky Jantra, and in any case the setting of the law is more confined by international agreement than national government like to admit, eg transnational corporations and transfer payments.

Yes you can come down harder on those individuals using offshore arrangements and make avoidance less socially acceptable but the reality is that the response becomes more sophisticated and a hard-core will remain. Unless we become North Korea not everybody or every payment/transfer can be checked.

G4S, Srco etc are the next huge scandal that is now slowly unfolding and is as far removed from a free-market as you can get. A stitch up between a very small of potential providers showing all the same faults.

Re: The benefits of devolution

jeremy
Jantra
@Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I posted this elsewhere so can't be bothered typing it again


The governments annual budget is around 700bn so 35bn is around 5%. This is comparable with expected bad debt in the private sector. The second issue is that its based on the tax gap - a guess made by HMRC on what it thinks it should be collecting. This is based on many things but still remains only a guess. The final issue is that society is defrauding the government by 13.2bn although estimates put this closer to 20bn. This is hardly governments fault.

The fraud has always been there and so has the so called tax gap. The tax gap is made up of many things but mainly its where business taxes can't be paid due to insolvency. So its hardly missing tax just tax that cannot be collected.

This more sensationalist journalism without really looking to get behind the numbers to see what they really mean. The figures are shocking, but as Barry Dragon (sic) says, it's not a new problem and its actually getting better under this government. The issue is that public accounts are now placed under much greater scrutiny given the uk's financial position.



regarding G4S, Serco et al. you will notice that they have been stripped of their contracts with respect to tagging. This is the free market in operation. If you don't provide the required service your customer is free to choose to move elsewhere. We see no such freedom of choice with the poorly executed public services we have to suffer in the UK and Wales. we are bereft of decent public services on a par with Germany despite paying similar taxation. The evidence is irrefutable that the state is not the best at providing services and that the market is better at allocating resources in the best possible way.


The tax gap is in the region of £32-£40 billion but could be larger dependent upon methodology used to estimate the gap or who you take the advice from, HMRC split it roughly as:
16% criminal attack
14% evasion
16% hidden economy
14% avoidance
13% legal interpretation
12% non-payment
9% failure to take reasonable care
6% error

In theory all these elements can be reduced but the reality is that the state is so large and complex that most of these areas of loss will continue in some form or other. For example whatever political parties say it is unlikely that legislation will get simpler, lucky Jantra, and in any case the setting of the law is more confined by international agreement than national government like to admit, eg transnational corporations and transfer payments.

Yes you can come down harder on those individuals using offshore arrangements and make avoidance less socially acceptable but the reality is that the response becomes more sophisticated and a hard-core will remain. Unless we become North Korea not everybody or every payment/transfer can be checked.

G4S, Srco etc are the next huge scandal that is now slowly unfolding and is as far removed from a free-market as you can get. A stitch up between a very small of potential providers showing all the same faults.


the free market was a reference to the fact that the customer (government) has a choice of supplier (serco, G4S). This is clearly good as service levels have been less than satisfactory and as such new suppliers are sought. This is why the free market is the best most efficient type of market. Consider the poor public services we have to ensure in the UK and Wales in particular. We all know most services are substandard yet we don't have a choice - we just have to accept that we are subject to state capitalism that has a monopoly on certain services (or as near as damn it) and as such there is no incentive to improve services, reduce costs and put the customer first.

your point about the tax gap is still based on an estimate. Whilst I'm privy to HMRCs research they themselves accept that they are guessing the size of the black market and crime/evasion. This accounts for around half of the so called tax gap. Avoidance and legal interpretation should not be put in there as this gap will never be 'closed' unless Parliament legislates for it. Not only that, you cannot legislate without giving consideration to the fact that most tax law was written in the pre global age. Most if not all tax jurisdictions need to work together to ensure a fair tax system but we have to remember that some nations use low tax regime's as a USP (London being one such tax haven for FS and capital markets). Look what happened by the typical left wing response when France decided to tax its wealth creators to high heaven - capital flight and a stalling economy. Whilst the Laffer curve may be debatable in the centre at the extreme's it is pretty accurate. When one jurisdiction chooses to make itself so uncompetitive due to and outdated political ideology then it cannot complain when in the 21st century businesses and individuals choose alternative more cost effective solutions. alternatively, if you don't agree that individuals and businesses should use cost and service received as a reason for decision making, then we can always request the government keeps G4S and Serco as it is the same argument

Re: The benefits of devolution

Wales continually benefits from the left wing approach to public service delivery. Bottom of the Pisa rankings, an economy that's the worst performing in the uk and a healthcare system in total disarray.

Yet if there was an election today the welsh would still vote to protect their benefits and welfare rather than look to see an improvement to service provision, prospects and opportunity

Re: The benefits of devolution

Hi Janta,

Please understand that there is a massive difference between devolution and the Welsh Labour Government. Since 1999, people in Wales have had the chance to elect the government of their choice. It is that government which has failed Wales, not the process of devolution. Devolution is irreversible, and I do see a time in the next 20-30 years when Wales will go it alone. The only reason Westminster wants to keep us is because of water (Birmingham and Liverpool would run dry otherwise) and Valleys cannon fodder for their illegal wars.

I wouldn't take much notice of these PISA tests. I'm an ex-teacher and I know that when they were taken, the children were told not to revise for them. The only thing Welsh people have to do is vote for any other party than Labour in 2016.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Hi Mathew

Thanks for the reply. You may not see the Welsh Government and devolution as being the same, but they are - the Welsh Government was a consequence of devolution.

I'm not a nationalist, I don't necessarily think the best person to legislate for my life is a Welshman. There are plenty of good politicians in the world who are not Welsh. I appreciate to some (not saying you) this might see anathema, but the Welsh aren't necessarily the best people in the world.

So with that in mind, I'd rather the best people legislate for me. Now from where I stand with my statistics hat on, you're going to get a better quality legislature from 63m people than you will from 3m people. We have seen the effects of Welsh governance: a failing NHS, a failing education system, a failing economy, reliance on public sector jobs, a weak private sector.

If we really needed devolution then why couldn't the MPs at Westminster deal with devolved issues alone? They managed to work on devolved matters before devolution so why not after? Why do we need to increase the size of the state: 60 AMs (for a population of 3m!!!), all the civil servants that 'support' them but stifle everyone else's life, the bureaucracy, the paperwork, the nonsense rhetoric in the papers (that never actually holds the talking shop to account).

As for your claim regarding PISA - I don't believe that students/pupils were told not to revise. The Welsh government have a duty of care to our children and that includes education. To suggest they don't take international testing seriously is hard to believe. I am not blaming the teachers, I am blaming the state interference.

We all know the state is truly incapable of dealing with education and health and it is best left to the private sector to deliver what is really needed, but the Welsh have demonstrated time and again they prefer failing services, benefits, welfare and handouts. If they didn't then they wouldn't keep voting for the same failed left wing approach to life.

Socialism, left wing theory, statism, it is all about control and standardisation. The thing is - we are not all the same. We are different, the sooner the Welsh appreciate we are all different and that we need to push forward those who are capable the sooner we can start developing a Wales that can deliver the wealth its people need to lead a good quality of life. You won't get that with Labour and you won't get that with the anti-business Plaid either.

Wales needs a paradigm shift otherwise we will fall further behind England and will forever more be reliant on English generosity for our living standards.

Finally, England is surrounded by water on three sides, I'm pretty sure if the English really wanted to they could manage to build a few desalination plants here and there

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra

We all know the state is truly incapable of dealing with education and health and it is best left to the private sector to deliver what is really needed, but the Welsh have demonstrated time and again they prefer failing services, benefits, welfare and handouts. If they didn't then they wouldn't keep voting for the same failed left wing approach to life.

Socialism, left wing theory, statism, it is all about control and standardisation. The thing is - we are not all the same. We are different, the sooner the Welsh appreciate we are all different and that we need to push forward those who are capable the sooner we can start developing a Wales that can deliver the wealth its people need to lead a good quality of life. You won't get that with Labour and you won't get that with the anti-business Plaid either.



You can't refer to "the Welsh" as a single mass and then go on to state how we are not all the same. It doesn't make sense and is really irritating. I'm Welsh and I don't prefer failing services, benefits, welfare or handouts. I very much dislike Welsh Labour. But then again I dislike all political parties - if they put as much effort into trying to better the country as they do into point scoring we'd all be a bit better off.

Out of interest, who do you vote for in the Assembly elections? Apologies if you've already mentioned, I must admit I haven't read through all of the posts on this thread.

Re: The benefits of devolution

No, sorry. The Welsh Labour Government is not directly related to devolution. A Welsh Government is the consequence, but Wales doesn't have to be Labour forever.

So I suppose you'd prefer to pay for your prescriptions? And have Michael Gove in charge of the education system? And pay £9,000 a year for tuition fees? I agree that the process was a bit botched in that we should have transferred the Welsh MPs to Cardiff in the first place. I'm sorry to say that your view is in the minority as poll after poll after poll shows that people are happy with devolution in Wales and want more powers transferred. Like I say, if you're not happy with a Welsh Labour Government, then vote for another party. If you'd still be discontent well England isn't that far away.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Mathew
No, sorry. The Welsh Labour Government is not directly related to devolution. A Welsh Government is the consequence, but Wales doesn't have to be Labour forever.

So I suppose you'd prefer to pay for your prescriptions? And have Michael Gove in charge of the education system? And pay £9,000 a year for tuition fees? I agree that the process was a bit botched in that we should have transferred the Welsh MPs to Cardiff in the first place. I'm sorry to say that your view is in the minority as poll after poll after poll shows that people are happy with devolution in Wales and want more powers transferred. Like I say, if you're not happy with a Welsh Labour Government, then vote for another party. If you'd still be discontent well England isn't that far away.


When I wake up the first thing I do is go to my window and stick my head out. If I crane my neck out and turn my head to the right I can see the Mendips and the glory of the English coast from my executive home in Penarth marina.

I do this to remind myself that there IS a promised land. The grass IS greener on the other side of the Bristol channel. I wind my neck in and walk to the breakfast nook humming a few bars of 'Jerusalem'. The point is that the English are our betters. You don't acquire the largest empire on Earth by being like, for example, the Welsh. The English are a 'Master Race' and I care not for the nationalist Pollyannas, like you Mathew, who refuse to accept the natural order.

Look at where the first electoral successes for the Labour party were. In Wales. The English know that you accept your station in life according to the circumstances of your birth and the quality of the stock from whence you came. The Welsh have the unnatural idea that, for example, the children of a miner should have equal opportunity with the children of, for example, an accountant. This is patent nonsense and symptomatic of the malaise that afflicts the Welsh and socialists alike.

Devolution and the Welsh Labour Government are one and the same. Carwyn the Caring cares not that Wales has fallen to the bottom of every league table that has ever been devised. He knows the truth that the Welsh are, figuratively speaking, 'monkeys' and all that we deserve are peanuts. And English tax-payer-funded peanuts at that!

Re: The benefits of devolution

why do people continue to engage with jantra, hes an arse, has an opinion and the lady is not for turning.
spoils a really good site.
I long for the time he had the tantrum and sodded off

Re: The benefits of devolution

Maybe some of you dudes also need to bugger off from this forum if all you can do is criticise the messenger rather than his messages.

In our marvellous Welsh Labour run utopia:

1) I tried to go to see an NHS doctor before Christmas (for the first time in at least 5 years) and was told that no appointments were possible within the next two weeks.

2) I made an appointment with my NHS dentist this week for a replacement filling. The first appointment available....17 March 2014.

3) I have booked 6 European flights for the first half of 2014 - all departing from across the border because we don't do flights to virtually any European cities from Wales.

I could go on, but let's not pretend that the NHS is world class and that Wales is connected to every corner of the world simply because we can't face the truth.

Re: The benefits of devolution

You have got a NHS dentist!!!! My other half and I pay £600 a year for bleedin Denplan which also does not guarantee a prompt appointment.

On the plus side the doctor gives pretty prompt appointments.

Perhaps I need to find a NHS dentist to afford your European breaks

Re: The benefits of devolution

Wizard - I'm not disagreeing with your points, but what do YOU think we should do about it?

Re: The benefits of devolution

Victor Clam
Jantra

We all know the state is truly incapable of dealing with education and health and it is best left to the private sector to deliver what is really needed, but the Welsh have demonstrated time and again they prefer failing services, benefits, welfare and handouts. If they didn't then they wouldn't keep voting for the same failed left wing approach to life.

Socialism, left wing theory, statism, it is all about control and standardisation. The thing is - we are not all the same. We are different, the sooner the Welsh appreciate we are all different and that we need to push forward those who are capable the sooner we can start developing a Wales that can deliver the wealth its people need to lead a good quality of life. You won't get that with Labour and you won't get that with the anti-business Plaid either.



You can't refer to "the Welsh" as a single mass and then go on to state how we are not all the same. It doesn't make sense and is really irritating. I'm Welsh and I don't prefer failing services, benefits, welfare or handouts. I very much dislike Welsh Labour. But then again I dislike all political parties - if they put as much effort into trying to better the country as they do into point scoring we'd all be a bit better off.

Out of interest, who do you vote for in the Assembly elections? Apologies if you've already mentioned, I must admit I haven't read through all of the posts on this thread.


I don't vote. I'm against the concept of the state and don't wish to perpetuate it.

When I say Welsh I mean the collective majority. I don't mean individuals, apologies if it came across like that.

Re: The benefits of devolution

eric
why do people continue to engage with jantra, hes an arse, has an opinion and the lady is not for turning.
spoils a really good site.
I long for the time he had the tantrum and sodded off


all very interesting but could you respond to the points raised? failing healthcare, failing education, failing economy, weak private sector, too much reliance on public sector work, too much reliance on the barnett subsidy.

by all means criticise the post, but you have no idea who I am or what I am like. perhaps you can't handle the truth that Labour has failed Wales and we are going backwards. Rather than look at our issues directly you only have ad hominem attacks. fill your boots

Re: The benefits of devolution

Mathew
No, sorry. The Welsh Labour Government is not directly related to devolution. A Welsh Government is the consequence, but Wales doesn't have to be Labour forever.

So I suppose you'd prefer to pay for your prescriptions? And have Michael Gove in charge of the education system? And pay £9,000 a year for tuition fees? I agree that the process was a bit botched in that we should have transferred the Welsh MPs to Cardiff in the first place. I'm sorry to say that your view is in the minority as poll after poll after poll shows that people are happy with devolution in Wales and want more powers transferred. Like I say, if you're not happy with a Welsh Labour Government, then vote for another party. If you'd still be discontent well England isn't that far away.


I don't mind paying for prescriptions. Im not really for universal benefits per se as it seems a bit silly that someone who can afford to pay doesn't have to. It would be better for all if those who could pay did so meaning more money to be spent on providing a better service for those who can't pay.

Why do you think private sector delivered services should be subject to a charge? Why can't the state fund it but the private sector deliver it?

It seems to be the stock answer to move to England if I don't like the welsh government. You are a teacher, god help our children if you are indicative of the welsh teaching professions approach to individual thought and freedom of speech. My opinion is my own and I am perfectly entitled to have it. I have a good standard of living and I'm not against the government because i want to improve my life. I want to see wales improve. That's it. It's not about self because I'm doing ok. Others aren't though and the government isn't helping.

I am tired of seeing the welsh come bottom in just about every measure. I want Wales to be self sufficient, to be able to look the English in the eye and say we are there equals and that we don't rely on them at all. I want to see a thriving Wales that provides opportunity for all but doesn't stop its best succeeding.

Being critical of the mess we are is because I know that we can achieve so much more if we put the effort in and pulled in the right direction. Spending our money on free prescriptions rather than infrastructure is not going to benefit us long term. It creates reliance which perpetuates the shambles we are in. I'm a proud Welshman, I love gods little garden and I think its people are the most genuine you could wish to meet. Am I happy Wales is where it is? No I am not. I hate it, I wish we were so much more, but rather than bellyaching about the past, the resource extraction, thatcher and the mines and so on I would prefer to look forward and think of a Wales that could be. I just don't think we will ever get there if we follow the socialist model, its holding us back

Re: The benefits of devolution

Is this now the final post, then? No more can be said, we know how everyone feels and everyone is bored.

Re: The benefits of devolution

Redragon
Is this now the final post, then? No more can be said, we know how everyone feels and everyone is bored.
reading this thread is not obligatory.

This forum is about Cardiff and everything about it. Our political and economic system is worth discussing

Re: The benefits of devolution

Jantra
Redragon
Is this now the final post, then? No more can be said, we know how everyone feels and everyone is bored.
reading this thread is not obligatory.

This forum is about Cardiff and everything about it. Our political and economic system is worth discussing



Hear Hear. I am always amazed by the number of Welsh people who shirk their civic duty. We are all on trial for our collective failure to be as good as England and the English. We need a system where public sector workers are criticised, constructively, for their failings and then publicly shamed and made to pay for their transgressions.

A Cultural Revolution, if you will.

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