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Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra, time spent standing in cramped trains is unproductive. And you are really showing your chauvinism by suggesting that housework is nothing to do with economic productivity. Electrified trains can carry more people, more quickly, more comfortably and more reliably. This will help to increase economic output. More people will be able to.work in the places the trains serve. Do you really think that all these electrified train networks have been built for the sake of projecting a positive image? Why not just gold plate all of the buildings, or hire beautiful models to wander the streets smiling at people? I give you permission to use these two policies in the manifesto for your centre-right, business-focused party, chum

Re: Electrification of the railways

I think electrification of the railways is also a compoment of a much larger integrated public transport scheme which has loosely been described as a Cardiff Metro.

A sometimes poster on here, Mark, is heavily involved in developing these proposals. I don't want to break confidences or tread on his area but as I recall electrification of the GWML makes electrification of the Valleys lines much easier (and cheaper). The Valleys Lines electrification is then a key component of a wider public transport system which involves opening new lines (or re-opening disused lines), bus transport, park and ride facilities etc. Not just too and from Cardiff but inter valley as well.

I guess what I'm saying is that electrification isn't an end in itself just a major component of a wider scheme that has those elements you identify that will (or should) improve economic output. The proposals that I have seen are quite well developed and costed. They also appear eminently do-able.

If Mark is reading this thread then hopefully he can add some detail to the broad outline above. He really is the go to man on this topic.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Karl
I think electrification of the railways is also a compoment of a much larger integrated public transport scheme which has loosely been described as a Cardiff Metro.

A sometimes poster on here, Mark, is heavily involved in developing these proposals. I don't want to break confidences or tread on his area but as I recall electrification of the GWML makes electrification of the Valleys lines much easier (and cheaper). The Valleys Lines electrification is then a key component of a wider public transport system which involves opening new lines (or re-opening disused lines), bus transport, park and ride facilities etc. Not just too and from Cardiff but inter valley as well.

I guess what I'm saying is that electrification isn't an end in itself just a major component of a wider scheme that has those elements you identify that will (or should) improve economic output. The proposals that I have seen are quite well developed and costed. They also appear eminently do-able.

If Mark is reading this thread then hopefully he can add some detail to the broad outline above. He really is the go to man on this topic.


Here is the proposal:

http://www.cardiffbusinesspartnership.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/iwa_metroreport.pdf

Try reading the foreword, Jantra. Thus will begin your understanding of the inpenetrable tangle of ideas that is :"why sparky choo choos is good".
Ps. P

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

standing in cramped trains is not unproductive to the economy. If my hours of work are 9-5 then I have to be in work from those hours. If I am not then i have to make up those hours elsewhere replacing lost productivity. so where is the lost productivity? as Karl has alluded to, it is quality of life.

it is very easy to say there will be economic benefits - its a buzzword or phrase - but when you actually try and quantify what those benefits are or how they arise, it becomes a lot more difficult to place any sort of meaning to it.

FWIW I have read the IWA report twice previously. I agree that electrification will bring improvements to the infrastructure, but I doubt in itself it will increase economic output.

You have not provided any evidence to suggest that there is a direct correlation between using electric trains and an increase in GDP/GVA (or some other economic measure)

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra, standing on a cramped train for 40 minutes means that you are not producing anything (apart from sweat) for 40 minutes. Sitting on a less cramped electric train for 30 minutes might mean you can send a few emails to work contacts. A gain in productivity. With the ten minutes you save each wsy every day, you could use to develop a business idea, mow the.lawn, read to your child, go jogging, develop wearisome trolling arguments on the internet. Some of that time saved by some people will increase productivity and economic output.

Re: Electrification of the railways

just so i've not misunderstood what you are saying...all these valleys folk who commute into Cardiff have jobs that require laptops, blackberry's etc and can send work emails when on the train?

is that what you are suggesting?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
just so i've not misunderstood what you are saying...all these valleys folk who commute into Cardiff have jobs that require laptops, blackberry's etc and can send work emails when on the train?

is that what you are suggesting?


Yes, Jantra some of them wil be able to be more productive while travelling. Also, if they spend less time travelling, they might be less tired and stresssed when they get to work and will work harder and better. It seems that everyone that has ever planned, funded, designed or built one of these systems has envisaged economic benfits.
Here is the parliamentary document showing the BCR for GWR electrification:
http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2011/DEP2011-0587.doc
Here is the Network Rail document detailing the economic case for electrification:

http://www.ice.org.uk/getattachment/8af9ce86-ea3e-46d8-83d7-a8fede996b60/Rail-Electrification---Benefits-to-Wales.aspx

Re: Electrification of the railways

Aren't the uk government expecting that the high speed rail link between london and brum to yield large economic benefits.
Mightn't this be similar, albeit on a different scale.

I guess that the less time spent commuting, the more people are prepared to make that journey, effectively increasing the work pool and access to customers.
Also the more free time you have the.more likely you are going to go and.spend some money after work.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

Yes, Jantra some of them wil be able to be more productive while travelling. Also, if they spend less time travelling, they might be less tired and stresssed when they get to work and will work harder and better.

having to sit on a train for ten minutes more does not impact your productivity in work. It makes you wonder how the users of london's crowded underground ever make it up the steps into daylight given the way it decreased morale. London is the most productive part of the UK per capita. It also has overcrowding and congestion. you are more likely to see sudoko on the trains than works email



Mr Appeasement


It seems that everyone that has ever planned, funded, designed or built one of these systems has envisaged economic benfits.

they may all say there are economic benefits, but none actually go and explain where this increase in productivity and output is going to come from. saying it is so does not make it so.

Mr Appeasement

Here is the parliamentary document showing the BCR for GWR electrification:

http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2011/DEP2011-0587.doc


not one word of the increase in output of productivity that goes with economic development. the document only cites 'soft' benefits such as saving time, they make no reference to any sort of increase in output

Mr Appeasement

Here is the Network Rail document detailing the economic case for electrification:

http://www.ice.org.uk/getattachment/8af9ce86-ea3e-46d8-83d7-a8fede996b60/Rail-Electrification---Benefits-to-Wales.aspx

ditto as above.
[/quote]
again, no mention of tangible increases to economic output, just the fact that the region will have an electric metro.

economic output is a measure of how much you produce, make, create that you can sell. having an electric rail network doesn't ensure you make more, it just makes your daily life a little bit easier and more comfortable.

do you seriously think that people in Merthyr would consider commuting to Cardiff if the journey time was 10 minutes less? I don't.

do you think that the majority of people will use the ten minutes less they spend on the train to do something prodcutive for the economy. i don't.

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
Aren't the uk government expecting that the high speed rail link between london and brum to yield large economic benefits.

yes but the government doesn't actually go on and state what those benefits are. it is easy to say there will be economic benefits, its a lot harder to say hoe they will be derived.


colour wolf

Mightn't this be similar, albeit on a different scale.

yes totally. government saying there will be economic benefits but not saying where they will come from.

colour wolf

I guess that the less time spent commuting, the more people are prepared to make that journey

we are talking ten minutes maximum from Merthyr, so its going to be a lot less for most. We are not talking about crossing the rubicon of international travel from steam power to jet engine

colour wolf

, effectively increasing the work pool and access to customers.

i doubt the workpool will be increased, unless there is a baby boom due to the excitement of having electric trains

colour wolf

Also the more free time you have the.more likely you are going to go and.spend some money after work.

thats great, thats the rub, it has a social impact, but doing stuff for yourself doesn't in itself increase economic output

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra, less time travelling=more time for potentially working. The self employed who use public transport will benefit. One of my family members is a consultant who divides his time between Cardiff and London. The delays on the unreliable GWR have cost him business. He is looking forward to electrification as he will be able to be more productive ie do more work that would have goneoto consultants in other parts of the UK or abroad. That was an answer to your question, Jantra

Re: Electrification of the railways

this contradicts what you have previously posted. you said that being sat on trains workers can email - a virtual desk if you like. now you are saying being sat on a train means that your consultant friend/relative is losing business. I assume that GWR passengers have no restrictions on laptops and other devices - in fact, i know this to be the case since I travelled to Aylesbury last week to work using GWR

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
this contradicts what you have previously posted. you said that being sat on trains workers can email - a virtual desk if you like. now you are saying being sat on a train means that your consultant friend/relative is losing business. I assume that GWR passengers have no restrictions on laptops and other devices - in fact, i know this to be the case since I travelled to Aylesbury last week to work using GWR


Fair play, your argumentsh have won me / worn me round, It is all about perception, all infrastructure improvements are about perception, Cross Rail in London, HS 1, any mortorway scheme, its all about perception. I am no longer even sure on the need for air travel.
For the love og god MR A and anyone else just reply to Jantras posts thus;

"Yes oh wise one, you are indeed correct and the rest of the world is so wrong" feel free to cut and copy

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra, yes oh wise one, you are indeed correct and the rest of the world is so wrong. Be that as it may,my close relative is an arbitrator and expert witness, there are some jobs he's had to turn down because he couldn't make the meeting because of problems with the trains. Panels and Hearings aren't interested iin why your train was 3 hours late, and I know that unreliable trains, engineering work and breakdowns have cost him work. He can't use the facilities on the train to be at the meeting in person. Trains don't have matter transferers which can "beam" him into meetings when he is delayed. He sometimes travels first class on FGW sometimes he pays himself and goes second class. He always has a seat booked,regardless of which class of carriage he's in. So he always has the opportunity to work on inter-city journeys. He doesn't use Valley Lines to commute at rush hour, but if he did he would probably be more productive on a reliable,fast,spacious electric train. I will ask him about it the next time that I see him and let you know what he reckons.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Eric

good morning to you.

If i may say, you're just being daft. In this thread I have asked for evidence of tangible economic development as a result of developing the rail infrastructure. for example, evidence pointing to an increase in jobs, new factories, new offices, an increase in consumer demand, an increase in exports....all the things that show an economy is increasing in size.

Other than whooly political answers that electrification will bring economic benefits, none of the evidence has indicated how these benefits will arise. burden of proof is everything.

I am not suggesting that new infrastructure does not bring better connectivity between peoples thus improving trade relations, but where existing infrastructure is being upgraded, then my personal opinion (if I am allowed to have one) is that due to lack of evidence to suggest otherwise, the only real tangible 'economic' benefit is the soft benefits such as improvements to quality of life rather than hard benefits such as new factories, new office blocks, more jobs...the type of measures that show an increase in economic output.

I do not believe everything the media or politicians or any form of agency happens to tell us. i prefer to see the evidence and look at it and form an opinoion. Thus far in this thread there has been no evidence of any tangible benefits to the economy other than a few presentations saying 'there will be economic benefits'. That is not evidence, that is a statement of opinion.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

so you close relative couldn't make the meeting to act as an independent expert....I assume the meeting organisers found another expert witness to undertake the task. If this is the case, there is no lost economic output, just a shift of output to another party.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Mr Appeasement

so you close relative couldn't make the meeting to act as an independent expert....I assume the meeting organisers found another expert witness to undertake the task. If this is the case, there is no lost economic output, just a shift of output to another party.


Yes oh wise one, you are indeed correct and the rest of the world is so wrong. Notwithstanding your ineffable genius amd all-encompassing wisdom, he has lost money as has the welsh economy where he spends most of his dosh. If they get an alternative witness from abroad, then there is a loss of money from the UK economy.That's why we want electrified railways, so that we make more money in our local economy. Oo uherstah, Antwuh? Ooh, ooh, ooh, aaah,ahhhhh,AHHHHHHHH!!

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

Yes oh wise one, you are indeed correct and the rest of the world is so wrong. Notwithstanding your ineffable genius amd all-encompassing wisdom, he has lost money as has the welsh economy where he spends most of his dosh. If they get an alternative witness from abroad, then there is a loss of money from the UK economy.That's why we want electrified railways, so that we make more money in our local economy. Oo uherstah, Antwuh? Ooh, ooh, ooh, aaah,ahhhhh,AHHHHHHHH!!


again, for purposes of clarification:-

1. your expert witness friend could acquire more business from England if Wales had better connectivity to London;

2. due to shortcomings in the Welsh rail infrstructure, it is more likely that the English client will choose an English expert to provide services;

3. A solution to this problem is to lobby the English to pay for the Welsh railway upgrade;

4. The upgraded Welsh railway will be able to ensure the Welsh can travel to london in the same time as their English counterparts;

5. Your expert friend will therefore take revenue from his English competitor, taking GDP out of England and into Wales.

So as I see it, you want the English to fund our railway line so that we can become more competitive to the detriment of the English who are paying for the line. I honestly don't think that the English would do that - do you?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Re 3,

Scotland gets a percentage of rail spend. Wales doesn't, so it is classed as 'England and Wales'. Very little of that spend goes to Wales, so it is Welsh people paying for rail improvements in England, more than anything else.

We are paying for crossrail, we are paying for high speed rail. A bit pissed off with it to be honest.

Re: Electrification of the railways

James
Re 3,

Scotland gets a percentage of rail spend. Wales doesn't, so it is classed as 'England and Wales'. Very little of that spend goes to Wales, so it is Welsh people paying for rail improvements in England, more than anything else.


but Wales receives much more than its fair share of welfare and benefit. We cannot have it all. either we have courage in our convictions, demand additional infrastructure spend but give up our welfare and benefits, or we just accept that their is a limited pot of cash and that due to our own lack of productivity, lack of jobs, lack of capital, the funds are spent on welfare not infrastructure.

I think I am beginning to understand supporters of devolution. We are Welsh and therefore should run our own affairs, except when we want something which we cannot afford at which point we become British and expect London to foot the bill.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Yawn yawn yawn yawn. 'wales receives more than its fair share'. Based on what? pure population numbers? You can't base the amount of welfare/benefit payments an area should receive based solely on the number of people living there. It must be calculated on need. Wales has higher levels of social deprivation and thus requires a greater relative proportion of benefit payments, than say London.

If the private sector bothered to invest in Wales and create jobs, then perhaps some of these people wouldn't need benefits. Spending on benefits should not prevent investment in infrastructure.

Re: Electrification of the railways

George

I totally agree, benefits and welfare should be based on need not population. However, we cannot expect our 5% of the population to receive say 7% of the welfare budget without seeing a reduction elswhere. Wales already receives £9bn more per annum in funding than it contributes in tax receipts. Yet some people think this is not enough. It appears we want all the modern benefits that the hard workers of the South East get, but we also want the benefits of a welfare system that we hardly contribute towards.

as for your comment regarding the private sector...perhaps it is because Wales is not seen to be business friendly, too bureaucratic, too focussed on developing an English funded public sector whilst doing not a lot to develop its own indigenous private sector. I find it absurd that you would question why the private sector does not invest in Wales? The private sector will invest where they think they will get maximum utility. If that means certain areas see lower private sector activity and investment then it is up to government using the levers of power to apploy market corrections or policy changes. In Wales we have not seen anything near what is required in the last 12 years - a charge laid directly at WG for they are responsible for economic development. Wales is not seen as business friendly and it is not seen as being entreprenuerial and we have to change that culture. We will not do that having a Trotskyist in charge of ecomomic development.

The perception (and I stress the word perception) regarding the WLA does put off business from being based here.

I have said on this forum that WG went about developing the welsh private sector the wrong way. Rhodri morgans preferred approach was to work with Entreprenuer Action (itself liquidated due to insolvency), Venture Wales, Business eye, Business in Focus et al. These organisation would take from from WG, cream a bit off for themselves, then pay 'mentors' to draft business plans for business start ups. 12 months later if those businesses were still going WG would claim that due to their intervention and their policies they were creating an entrepreneurial culture. The fact was lost on WG and its ministers that the businesses may not have needed business plans drafted in the first instance and that following the creation of the business plans, no further mentoring was provided. It was a complete fallacy that this type of support created new business start ups. it just gave money to the Venture Wales etc al and the mentors

Thankfully WG are now adopting a more pragmatic approach targetting the larger more established businesses within the SME sector...such businesses who trade up with multinationals and trade down with local based business. The sort of businesses that actually drive economic growth. WG were more interested in created 'new starts' as opposed to creating sustainable growth and economic development. Death by measurement in effect.

Despite Wales mirroring the UK and transferring to a service based economy, WG and its Finance Wales offshoot have only recently allowed B2B business investment....its this sort of delayed reaction that has kept Wales back. This goes full circle....the private sector does not invest in Wales because it is not business friendly. that is the long and short of it. Create the correct business environment and the investment will come

Re: Electrification of the railways

Give me the infrastructure investment so that the welfare payments might not be needed.

London is set up to succeed, and surprise, surprise it largely does (albeit with highh unemployment and shocking inequality).

Wales is set up to fail, and by and large does.

Re: Electrification of the railways

take away the welfare payments so that we can invest...viscious circle. Wales does not want to lose its welfare but it wants the investment. Something has to give.

Wales does have potential, but needs to understand that it must produce more and contribute more to the central pot before it can justify having any more to spend.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Wales lagging behind England in attracting private industry has to be pqartly a function of poorer transport infrastructure surely?
Historically it certainly has.
aA half decent airport would be better, but I'll take this.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Colour Wolf

you raise a valid point, and it ties in with my comment that the government should apply market corrections or change policy. For example, the 10 borough councils that make up Greater M/cr pooled their resource and purchased ringway - which is now the largest airport outside of London. The councils appreciated the benefits of having a world class airport on their doorstep and took the bull by the horns. Connectivity with the rest of the world has business advantages.

Unfortunately for Wales, CCC/VoGC et al were not so bold or forward thinking. ringway shows what can be done when governments get involved. Ringway exists solely for the purpose of Greater M/cr with all profits being reinvested. Can we say the same about CWL given Abertis invest nothing and even our own ministers are embarrassed to use it?

We could be bold in Wales, but blaming the English for all our ills is apparently much easier

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Colour Wolf

you raise a valid point, and it ties in with my comment that the government should apply market corrections or change policy. For example, the 10 borough councils that make up Greater M/cr pooled their resource and purchased ringway - which is now the largest airport outside of London. The councils appreciated the benefits of having a world class airport on their doorstep and took the bull by the horns. Connectivity with the rest of the world has business advantages.

Unfortunately for Wales, CCC/VoGC et al were not so bold or forward thinking. ringway shows what can be done when governments get involved. Ringway exists solely for the purpose of Greater M/cr with all profits being reinvested. Can we say the same about CWL given Abertis invest nothing and even our own ministers are embarrassed to use it?

We could be bold in Wales, but blaming the English for all our ills is apparently much easier


Maybe the WG are just waiting for the airport to fail completely thereby picking it up on the cheap before investing in some road and rail connections to it.
I'm sure the residents of leafy v of g will accept a dirty great road from the m4 for the greater good of the region

Re: Electrification of the railways

Yes oh wise one, you are indeed correct and the rest of the world is so wrong.

see here
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/economics/rdg/webia/webmethodology/sportwidereconomicbenefi3137.pdf

and a good example project here;

www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/download/743 have a look at this, loads about the productivity and economic benefits of infrastructure

Re: Electrification of the railways

Eric

All I have asked are what are the economic benefits and where is the evidence? I have not said none exist, just that there is no evidence.

you have provided a report relating to crossrail (NB the other link does not work). this report identifies four key areas:

1. Move to More Productive Jobs
2. Pure Agglomeration
3. Increase in labour force participation
4. Impacts on imperfect competition

lets assume that the above are typical examples of economic benefits of a major infrastructure project, do we have any such evidence that electrifying Cardiff - Paddington will bring the very same benefits. For want of repeating myself, it is fine to suggest that other projects have benefits (because the evidence says so), but I am concerned with electrification of the Valleys and would like to see the analysis, evidence and conclusions relating to that particular project.

I feel you misunderstand my statement when I say I have not seen any economic benefits. I was referring to electrification of the Valleys lines. I thought it was a given that we were talking about the Valley lines, I didn't realise you were talking more widely.

anyway, back to my question, is there any evidence that electrifying the valley lines will bring economic benefits? I have not seen any evidence or analysis except political bluster.

are you saying that because someone has suggested that cross rail will bring economic benefits to London you have concluded that electrification of the valley lines will bring economic benefits to south Wales?

Final question, why so much angst in your responses? do you think it might be better for all concerned if you adopted a more cordial approach to your responses?

Re: Electrification of the railways

will try again
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/economics/rdg/webia/webmethodology/sportwidereconomicbenefi3137.pdf

my tone is thanks old boy. I suppose your posts are confusing as you jump around a lot and when pulled up you chnage tack. Your posts to date here do infer that you do not buy into the genral concept of infrastructure improvements having a productivity effect, these documents should indeed answer a few of your wqueries, read them, analyse and respond please. As for valley lines elcytrification, it is a concept currently based on other similair projects, I believe the analysis is going on as we speak, M I beleiev has mentioned he has sight of such work?? lets wait and see it shall we, but we can take note of similair schemes and infer simialir benefits surely?

Re: Electrification of the railways

still bad link Eric

so in that post you have stated that (i) there are not quantifiable economic benefits as of yet and that there is no analysis of note and that (ii) you reckon even if there were the valleys electrification could garner the same type of benefits as cross rail (the train line running through one of the most advanced cities in the world)

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
still bad link Eric

so in that post you have stated that (i) there are not quantifiable economic benefits as of yet and that there is no analysis of note and that (ii) you reckon even if there were the valleys electrification could garner the same type of benefits as cross rail (the train line running through one of the most advanced cities in the world)



type in Transport, Wider Economic Benefits and Impacts on GDP and see if you get the DFT 2005 report

no, tahts not what i'm suggesting, sorry you can't pick it out, very much a numbers man I guess

Re: Electrification of the railways

Eric

The devil is in the detail. I asked if there was any evidence of economic benefits of electrification (of the valleys).You said there was. I asked you to provide the evidence, then you said there is no evidence as the analysis hadn't been undertaken yet.

This reinforces my point that politicians are simply saying there are economic benefits without actually understanding them or knowing how those benefits will manifest in the economy. I have said several times on this thread that I wished politicians wouldn't make such empty promises.

You then say we should compare the valleys electrification with similar projects and cite cross rail as an example. I personally think its bonkers to compare cross rail with the valleys electrification. I don't think I need to explain why?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Eric

The devil is in the detail. I asked if there was any evidence of economic benefits of electrification (of the valleys).You said there was. I asked you to provide the evidence, then you said there is no evidence as the analysis hadn't been undertaken yet.

This reinforces my point that politicians are simply saying there are economic benefits without actually understanding them or knowing how those benefits will manifest in the economy. I have said several times on this thread that I wished politicians wouldn't make such empty promises.

You then say we should compare the valleys electrification with similar projects and cite cross rail as an example. I personally think its bonkers to compare cross rail with the valleys electrification. I don't think I need to explain why?


no old boy, thats not how things have developed in this debate, please read all again, try and follow your arguments and what others have replied to you on. You have generalised about productivity and transport improvements and that was what got my goat, i only mnetion valley lines in response to you and in the first instance of course prior to any analyisis you can compare to other simialir projects would bring simialir benefits.

Re: Electrification of the railways

it appears then that we were debating different things. I was talking about the electrification of the Valleys lines - what were you talking about?

I have asked many times what the economic benefits of electrifying the Valleys lines were and was told by yourself and others that the economic benefits had been well documented. The best efforts that could be mustered were references to other projects that can be described as similar because they relate to trains and thats about it. The Welsh context is very important as our base to grow is much different from London, surely you appreciate that?

It transpires that I was correct, there is no evidence (as of yet) to suggest any economic benefits will come to Wales - only post hoc rationalisation.

let me ask you a question, but before I do, will provide some background information: an observed tree falls in a forest and is observed to make a noise.

Q does an unobserved tree make a noise when it falls in a forest?

what you need to consider is whether observed and unobserved trees behave in the same way? Do we know the behaviour patterns of unobserved trees? Can we know the behaviour patterns or do we have to make assumptions?

Re: Electrification of the railways

A few thoughts.

I think that the electrification of the Valleys Lines would give more people more opportunity to take or look for jobs further afield than they do at present - most obviously in Cardiff. Most people have a rough idea of how far they would be willing to commute in relation to their salary. Generally, I'd travel up to an hour for a job, but it would need to be markedly better than my current role (e.g.better pay or better prospects or better firm to work for etc)for me to travel that far.

Making travel from Merthyr (for example) to Cardiff easier, more pleasant and quicker, even if only by ten minutes (which could be significant in relative terms), will give more people more opportunities to travel to employment.

Having a wider area of potential workforce will probably encourage some companies to locate here.

Improving access to Cardiff (and indeed destinations further afield whether Newport, Swansea, the Airport or Bristol) by making public transport quicker, cleaner and more pleasant may also encourage more people to live in the Valleys and trigger more housing development, and its associated economic stimumlus. Electrification could also be the first step towards a metro-style network, which would be likely to trigger development in other parts of Cardiff.

There is a degree of speculation in this admittedly, but I'm sure there would be economic benefits arising from electrification compared with a do-nothing scenario.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Barden
A few thoughts.

I think that the electrification of the Valleys Lines would give more people more opportunity to take or look for jobs further afield than they do at present - most obviously in Cardiff. Most people have a rough idea of how far they would be willing to commute in relation to their salary. Generally, I'd travel up to an hour for a job, but it would need to be markedly better than my current role (e.g.better pay or better prospects or better firm to work for etc)for me to travel that far.

Making travel from Merthyr (for example) to Cardiff easier, more pleasant and quicker, even if only by ten minutes (which could be significant in relative terms), will give more people more opportunities to travel to employment.

Having a wider area of potential workforce will probably encourage some companies to locate here.

Improving access to Cardiff (and indeed destinations further afield whether Newport, Swansea, the Airport or Bristol) by making public transport quicker, cleaner and more pleasant may also encourage more people to live in the Valleys and trigger more housing development, and its associated economic stimumlus. Electrification could also be the first step towards a metro-style network, which would be likely to trigger development in other parts of Cardiff.

There is a degree of speculation in this admittedly, but I'm sure there would be economic benefits arising from electrification compared with a do-nothing scenario.


Barden, the resident troll will just switch tack or introduce yet another pointless and irrelevant angle from which to "argue". Banging one's head against a brick wall would be a more fulfilling and enjoyable way of passing the time than "debating" with Jack o' Manchestra

Re: Electrification of the railways

Barden
A few thoughts.

I think that the electrification of the Valleys Lines would give more people more opportunity to take or look for jobs further afield than they do at present - most obviously in Cardiff. Most people have a rough idea of how far they would be willing to commute in relation to their salary. Generally, I'd travel up to an hour for a job, but it would need to be markedly better than my current role (e.g.better pay or better prospects or better firm to work for etc)for me to travel that far.

Making travel from Merthyr (for example) to Cardiff easier, more pleasant and quicker, even if only by ten minutes (which could be significant in relative terms), will give more people more opportunities to travel to employment.

Having a wider area of potential workforce will probably encourage some companies to locate here.

Improving access to Cardiff (and indeed destinations further afield whether Newport, Swansea, the Airport or Bristol) by making public transport quicker, cleaner and more pleasant may also encourage more people to live in the Valleys and trigger more housing development, and its associated economic stimumlus. Electrification could also be the first step towards a metro-style network, which would be likely to trigger development in other parts of Cardiff.

There is a degree of speculation in this admittedly, but I'm sure there would be economic benefits arising from electrification compared with a do-nothing scenario.

This makes a lot of sense to me, it is surprising to someone from cardiff or.Newport how insular some parts of the valleys can be.
I have a colleague who used to work in penrhiwceiber, and used to commute from cardiff. The local workers couldn't comprehend this, and Would ask her if there weren't any jobs in cardiff.
Anything that improves access to jobs has got to be good news for the valleys.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
this really is good news - lets hope it goes ahead as it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration. It would be even better if the contracting work was given to Welsh firms so the money invested actually stayed in Wales too.

Funnily enough, this was Jackomanchestra's first post on this thread, and the first reply to Hypercelt's initial post on March 17th 2012. I hope he asks himself why he has been arguing against his own stated point-of-view ever since? Maybe he is the proverbial man who could start an argument in a phone box?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Article in today's echo about train trams for the Cardiff and valleys metro area. Welsh government has said electrification to Swansea is more important. I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro.

It is indicative of the way policy seems to be defined in Wales. Shame really

Jackomanchestra's second post on this thread!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha aaahahahahahahaha ha ha.
What an absolute farce

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement
Jantra
this really is good news - lets hope it goes ahead as it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration. It would be even better if the contracting work was given to Welsh firms so the money invested actually stayed in Wales too.

Funnily enough, this was Jackomanchestra's first post on this thread, and the first reply to Hypercelt's initial post on March 17th 2012. I hope he asks himself why he has been arguing against his own stated point-of-view ever since? Maybe he is the proverbial man who could start an argument in a phone box?


I think that explains my position. could being an important modal verb in this context suggesting it is not definite and that the infrastructure development may result in economic regeneration. at no poiint have I said that infrstructure will being benefits. all i have done in this thread (time and again) is asked for someone to quantify what those benefits are. We have found at that at present those benefits have not been quantified and that there has been no analysis completed.

in other words, it is not possible to say what, if any, the economic benefits will be.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement
Jantra
Article in today's echo about train trams for the Cardiff and valleys metro area. Welsh government has said electrification to Swansea is more important. I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro.

It is indicative of the way policy seems to be defined in Wales. Shame really

Jackomanchestra's second post on this thread!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha aaahahahahahahaha ha ha.
What an absolute farce


can you please explain where in the above post that you have quoted that I reference any sort of economic benefits? are you just adopting a contrary position to whatever I write?

I stated, quite clearly, that I thought it would be better if the valleys were electrified rather than electrifying to swansea. the reason is that it brings more people on to the electric network. i have not alluded to any economic benefits in any way so i'm not sure why you are suggesting that I have. Anyone who can read will see that there is no mention. Perhaps you can explain how you have arrived at this conclusion?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Mr Appeasement
Jantra
Article in today's echo about train trams for the Cardiff and valleys metro area. Welsh government has said electrification to Swansea is more important. I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro.

It is indicative of the way policy seems to be defined in Wales. Shame really

Jackomanchestra's second post on this thread!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha aaahahahahahahaha ha ha.
What an absolute farce


can you please explain where in the above post that you have quoted that I reference any sort of economic benefits? are you just adopting a contrary position to whatever I write?

I stated, quite clearly, that I thought it would be better if the valleys were electrified rather than electrifying to swansea. the reason is that it brings more people on to the electric network. i have not alluded to any economic benefits in any way so i'm not sure why you are suggesting that I have. Anyone who can read will see that there is no mention. Perhaps you can explain how you have arrived at this conclusion?


Where you say " I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro." You are a laughing stock. Maybe you should diversify into clowning. Very postmodern, a clowning accountant. You wouldn't even need to practice

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jackomanchestra, your first post on this thread said and I quote:" this really is good news - lets hope it goes ahead as it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration."

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement
Jackomanchestra, your first post on this thread said and I quote:" this really is good news - lets hope it goes ahead as it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration."


i did say that. see my response earlier - it is self explanatory. if you did not read it the first time round and missed the message, then perhaps a forum that is based on the written word is not for you.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

Where you say " I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro." You are a laughing stock. Maybe you should diversify into clowning. Very postmodern, a clowning accountant. You wouldn't even need to practice


so you misunderstood the term 'biggest bang for buck'. its no biggie

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Mr Appeasement

Where you say " I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro." You are a laughing stock. Maybe you should diversify into clowning. Very postmodern, a clowning accountant. You wouldn't even need to practice


so you misunderstood the term 'biggest bang for buck'. its no biggie


"Biggest bang for buck" means "best return on investment". So unless YOU didn't understand what you meant (which is a possiblity) you were saying, in the fourth post on this thread, that electrifying Valley Lines would produce some return on investment. Then you subsequently questioned this point for a month. Arguing with yourself? A symptom of mental problems, or maybe an indicator that you are a complete f*¤+?=g w@=+!r

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement
"Biggest bang for buck" means "best return on investment". So unless YOU didn't understand what you meant (which is a possiblity) you were saying, in the fourth post on this thread, that electrifying Valley Lines would produce some return on investment.

that return happens to be more people on the electric network.

Mr Appeasement

Then you subsequently questioned this point for a month. Arguing with yourself? A symptom of mental problems, or maybe an indicator that you are a complete f*¤+?=g w@=+!r


Mr Ad hominem is back, oh how you have been missed. is that all you can muster, can't you have some originality in your name calling?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
Mr Appeasement
"Biggest bang for buck" means "best return on investment". So unless YOU didn't understand what you meant (which is a possiblity) you were saying, in the fourth post on this thread, that electrifying Valley Lines would produce some return on investment.

that return happens to be more people on the electric network.

Mr Appeasement

Then you subsequently questioned this point for a month. Arguing with yourself? A symptom of mental problems, or maybe an indicator that you are a complete f*¤+?=g w@=+!r


Mr Ad hominem is back, oh how you have been missed. is that all you can muster, can't you have some originality in your name calling?


I've never called you a f*¤+?=g w@=+!r before, so it was original. Yes, I believe you, "bigger bang for buck" means "carry more people". And maybe when you opined "it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration" you actually meant "the trains will be able to carry more people"! You can argue with yourself for a while now. Hoist on your own petard, Jackomanchestra! Pip pip

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mr Appeasement

I've never called you a f*¤+?=g w@=+!r before, so it was original.


yes...and no.

yes - you have never actually said that about me before

no - its not really original

Mr Appeasement

Yes, I believe you, "bigger bang for buck" means "carry more people".

bigger bang for buck tends to mean to focus on what returns the greatest outcome for a given resource. it can be (and usually is) measured financially, but not always so.

Mr Appeasement

And maybe when you opined "it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration" you actually meant "the trains will be able to carry more people"!

no, I meant exactly what I said. that it may kick start economic regeneration. that is not to say that electrifying the rail network will bring economic benefits.

I have asked several times in this thread if anyone can quantify what those benefits are and lo and behold the answer is that there has been no analysis undertaken yet.

so whilst there may be benefits, we just do not know.

Mr Appeasement

You can argue with yourself for a while now. Hoist on your own petard, Jackomanchestra! Pip pip

nothing to add to the really

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