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Re: Electrification of the railways

http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.

Re: Electrification of the railways

"But maybe the WG were prompted by that report by the Cardiff Busines Partnership?"


I couldn't possibly comment......

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.


Bl**** H*** that's incredible - what a difference having all those lines would make now, unbelievable!! is that pretty much all down to that one bloke? Beeching

Re: Electrification of the railways

paul cardiffwalesmap
colour wolf
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.


Bl**** H*** that's incredible - what a difference having all those lines would make now, unbelievable!! is that pretty much all down to that one bloke? Beeching


more to do with the motorist and the rising cost of rail travel. Beeching did what needed to be done

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
paul cardiffwalesmap
colour wolf
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.


Bl**** H*** that's incredible - what a difference having all those lines would make now, unbelievable!! is that pretty much all down to that one bloke? Beeching


more to do with the motorist and the rising cost of rail travel. Beeching did what needed to be done


I'm sure it made sense on paper at the time, but with hindsight do you think enough was taken into account with regard to the rising population ?

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
Jantra
paul cardiffwalesmap
colour wolf
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.


Bl**** H*** that's incredible - what a difference having all those lines would make now, unbelievable!! is that pretty much all down to that one bloke? Beeching


more to do with the motorist and the rising cost of rail travel. Beeching did what needed to be done


I'm sure it made sense on paper at the time, but with hindsight do you think enough was taken into account with regard to the rising population ?


In my opinion, the cuts were savage! and of course some lines may have needed to go, but nowhere near how many went - just had a quick look into this which backs up that the man went well over the top!

the bit about crytical analysis here is interesting..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts

Re: Electrification of the railways

paul cardiffwalesmap
colour wolf
Jantra
paul cardiffwalesmap
colour wolf
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Just found this map showing all the current and past railway lines, quite interesting stuff, must have been amazing to have seen it at the height.


Bl**** H*** that's incredible - what a difference having all those lines would make now, unbelievable!! is that pretty much all down to that one bloke? Beeching


more to do with the motorist and the rising cost of rail travel. Beeching did what needed to be done


I'm sure it made sense on paper at the time, but with hindsight do you think enough was taken into account with regard to the rising population ?


In my opinion, the cuts were savage! and of course some lines may have needed to go, but nowhere near how many went - just had a quick look into this which backs up that the man went well over the top!

the bit about crytical analysis here is interesting..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts


Seems like they made some pretty wild assumptions about commuter and freight behaviour in a reduced scale network and then rolled out massive changes without adequately testing their assumptions in a controlled trial.

Hopefully todays politicians have learned lessons from this kind of thing.

Re: Electrification of the railways

The arguments about Beeching are endless and pretty fruitless.

What is clear is that is was a major mistake not to preserve the rail corridors for future rail or other transport use. Many useful plans have been totally stymied by the selling off of track-bed particularly in urban areas.

This is much more of a problem in England than in Wales. For instance the arguments over the route of HS2 would be far less if it had been possible to utilize sections of the old Grand Central Railway route.

Re: Electrification of the railways

I was in London today the tube really is a pleasure to use apart from the circle line lets hope we'll have something similar with the metro.

Re: Electrification of the railways

I wouldn't get that optimistic Huw - there isn't going to be a criss-cross network involving multiple changing points where you can opt for a myriad of alternative routes to reach your destination.

That earlier pdf was quite striking if the faint grey lines all represented closed passenger routes.Wow.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Wizard
I wouldn't get that optimistic Huw - there isn't going to be a criss-cross network involving multiple changing points where you can opt for a myriad of alternative routes to reach your destination.

That earlier pdf was quite striking if the faint grey lines all represented closed passenger routes.Wow.


Which of the closed routes would you most want to see resurrected?

For personal reasons it looks like you used to be able to go directly from Aber to rhoose without going into cardiff.

For the region I.suppose if there was a link from merrhyr to swansea as well as cardiff if might increase the number of job opportunities within reach of some people in an area of high unemployment. Well if there were any jobs in swansea anyway.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Also, does anyone know where roath station was, and what was parade station and why was it called that?

I think I'm in danger of becomming a train geek here.

Re: Electrification of the railways

I think Roath station was in Pearl Street (which I would say was Splott).

As for the Parade I'm assuming that there was a stop near to the Engineering building of Cardiff Uni which is on the Parade.

Re: Electrification of the railways

The Rhymney Railway terminus was situated on current Uni land north of Queen St Station adjacent to The Walk. This closed when the RR and GWR amalgamated in 1924 all passenger traffic was then re routed into Queen St (which had 6 platforms).
Pearl Street closed in 1917 as a wartime economic measure.

Fast forward to today: as well as electrification there should be new stations between Cardiff and Newport at St Mellons, Marshfield and Dyffryn / Celtic Springs. This could remove a huge amount of road commuter traffic at very little cost.

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
Which of the closed routes would you most want to see resurrected?


I think I'd start with additional stations on electrified lines.

As well as a few that have already mentioned - there should definitely be a Canton station on the City Line - either as part of the Ely paper mills development or at Sanatorium Road.

I's also go for an intermediate station on the Cardiff Bay at the top of Bute Street / Lloyd George Avenue.

Following that I'd go for extensions to existing lines - possibly as light rail. Some ideas.

Cardiff Bay - Penarth Marina via the Barrage.
Maesteg - Caerau
Aberdare - Hirwaun
Ebbw Valley Line - Abertillery (planned)
Penarth - Sully

As for line re-openings Beddau would be the priority.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Ash
colour wolf
Which of the closed routes would you most want to see resurrected?


I think I'd start with additional stations on electrified lines.

As well as a few that have already mentioned - there should definitely be a Canton station on the City Line - either as part of the Ely paper mills development or at Sanatorium Road.

I's also go for an intermediate station on the Cardiff Bay at the top of Bute Street / Lloyd George Avenue.

Following that I'd go for extensions to existing lines - possibly as light rail. Some ideas.

Cardiff Bay - Penarth Marina via the Barrage.
Maesteg - Caerau
Aberdare - Hirwaun
Ebbw Valley Line - Abertillery (planned)
Penarth - Sully

As for line re-openings Beddau would be the priority.


This pdf file may help in the discussion.

http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Re: Electrification of the railways

Wizard
I wouldn't get that optimistic Huw - there isn't going to be a criss-cross network involving multiple changing points where you can opt for a myriad of alternative routes to reach your destination.

That earlier pdf was quite striking if the faint grey lines all represented closed passenger routes.Wow.


Yes obviously I don't expect any Metro system that may be developed to be as extensive and "criss cross" as the Tube. I was thinking more of the whole beauty of being able to turn up swipe your card and go you don't have to wait longer than five minutes most of the time, we should be expecting no longer than 10 minutes from Cardiff central outwards to places like Pontypridd. When you think of it its an absolute joke that that our politcians didn't identify electrification of commuter lines as something useful a long time ago should have been considered in the 90s alongside the Cardiff bay revelopment and the building of the Millenium stadium ect, the Tyne and Wear metro was opened 30 years ago the Manchester trams 20 years ago why are we always so behind the curve?

Re: Electrification of the railways

I see beddau is mentioned as a priority by several people, why is that?
Just wondering, as I've been there and it wasn't anything to shout about.

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
I see beddau is mentioned as a priority by several people, why is that?
Just wondering, as I've been there and it wasn't anything to shout about.
is there a place name spelt so fundamentally different from how its stated in speech?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Jantra
colour wolf
I see beddau is mentioned as a priority by several people, why is that?
Just wondering, as I've been there and it wasn't anything to shout about.
is there a place name spelt so fundamentally different from how its stated in speech?

Creigiau?

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
Jantra
colour wolf
I see beddau is mentioned as a priority by several people, why is that?
Just wondering, as I've been there and it wasn't anything to shout about.
is there a place name spelt so fundamentally different from how its stated in speech?

Creigiau?


well the first part is sort of how it is supposed to be said...

llanederyn

Re: Electrification of the railways

colour wolf
I see beddau is mentioned as a priority by several people, why is that?
Just wondering, as I've been there and it wasn't anything to shout about.


There are a couple of reasons. Beddau isn't much of a place but the line runs through some quite large communities particularly the Llantrisant / Talbot Green sprawl. Secondly the rails & infrastucture are still in place as it was used for goods traffic up until the closure of Coedely coke works.

As for the pronounciation of 'Beddau' - local people people call it "Bedde" - which is the correct Gwentian dialect Welsh pronounciation. It's only Cardiffians who call it "Bather"!

Re: Electrification of the railways

It also means 'Graves' in Welsh. Lovely name, spent a good chunk of my childhood there too. The station could help it become less stagnant. My mother, who worked in Cardiff, needed to take an hour long bus journey to get to work everyday. A train station would make the commute a bit easier and presumably stop in Cathays, Queens and Central

Re: Electrification of the railways

SP
It also means 'Graves' in Welsh. Lovely name, spent a good chunk of my childhood there too. The station could help it become less stagnant. My mother, who worked in Cardiff, needed to take an hour long bus journey to get to work everyday. A train station would make the commute a bit easier and presumably stop in Cathays, Queens and Central

I'm sure that's true, but can't the same be said of any number of places?

What makes beddau a priority?

Re: Electrification of the railways

I think you may have missed my previous post on why the Beddau line is a priority. This is why.
http://www.thenewtowncentre.co.uk/

Re: Electrification of the railways

Ash
I think you may have missed my previous post on why the Beddau line is a priority. This is why.
http://www.thenewtowncentre.co.uk/


Already a station in pontyclun isn't there?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Beddau is not a final destination in its own right - it is at the end of a spur line which would pick up Llantrisant & Talbot Green before joining SWML at Pontyclun. It then goes via western Cardiff so Cardiff Central would be first stop - not Cathays - but it is about time that they re-opened a station at St Fagans.

I think a Beddau line should then continue east to St Mellons rather than north to Queen St.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Tallsmurf
Beddau is not a final destination in its own right - it is at the end of a spur line which would pick up Llantrisant & Talbot Green before joining SWML at Pontyclun. It then goes via western Cardiff so Cardiff Central would be first stop - not Cathays - but it is about time that they re-opened a station at St Fagans.

I think a Beddau line should then continue east to St Mellons rather than north to Queen St.


The whole east of cardiff could do with trains. The bus takes 40 mins from pontprennau and almost as long to st mellons. I was recently living in one and working in the other and to get there by public transport would take at least an hour and a half.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Tallsmurf
I think a Beddau line should then continue east to St Mellons rather than north to Queen St.


I agree with that. It would depend on mainline capacity post electrification but stations in Splott/Roath & Rhymney would be ideal. It would probably be worth running it as a stopping service through to Chepstow with additional station in West and East Newport, Magor & Caldicott.

Re: Electrification of the railways

I don't know much about railway engineering but everytime I go on the GWML it always seems as though there are acres of space to put stations in various parts of east Cardiff, particulalry Rumney, St Mellons and even places like Tremorfa and Splott.

Would it be so difficult to add a few stations and sort out the signalling so commuter trains could share the line? Would it be that expensive? Getting into the city centre from the east is a nightmare as soon as you get anywhere near the funeral home. Imagine a couple of park and ride stations in east Cardiff and how much traffic it would take off the road as well as the potential to develop further residential and commercial opportunities.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Karl
I don't know much about railway engineering but everytime I go on the GWML it always seems as though there are acres of space to put stations in various parts of east Cardiff, particulalry Rumney, St Mellons and even places like Tremorfa and Splott.

Would it be so difficult to add a few stations and sort out the signalling so commuter trains could share the line? Would it be that expensive?


Hear hear. I agree.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Eastern Cardiff also has the benefit of 4 tracks so commuter services could be separated from express line

Re: Electrification of the railways

Karl
I don't know much about railway engineering but everytime I go on the GWML it always seems as though there are acres of space to put stations in various parts of east Cardiff, particulalry Rumney, St Mellons and even places like Tremorfa and Splott.

Would it be so difficult to add a few stations and sort out the signalling so commuter trains could share the line? Would it be that expensive?


I'm no engineer either but I think you're right that its a signaling issue. I know the Ebbw Vale - Newport service is on hold pending a signals upgrade. What puzzles me is that there used to be heavy goods traffic from Port Talbot to Llanwern. I don't understand why those train paths couldn't be used.

There's some interesting info here from "The Better Trains for Chepstow" campaign.

http://www.bettertrains4chepstow.co.uk/

Re: Electrification of the railways

Came across this....some interesting ideas

http://www.mgbarryconsulting.com/docs/10042012103742.pdf

Re: Electrification of the railways

M
Came across this....some interesting ideas

http://www.mgbarryconsulting.com/docs/10042012103742.pdf


That's a very interesting piece of work. It'd be fantastic if all that got implemented. Id be surprised if I ever live to see some of it.

Re: Electrification of the railways

@colour Wolf

Mark Barry posts on here as Mark. We have seen that paper some time ago, as you say lots of good ideas and if the costings are to be believed, its nonsensical to not implement.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Not sure why, but I use a number of "handles"! As an fyi I am expecting/hoping for some +ve news re rail electrification. A HLOS announcement is due from DfT in next 2-3 weeks; not sure of full scope but I am convinced we will get something. The challenge for us in SE Wales is how we maximise the impact of that investment - which for me is to fully develop the Metro plan for delivery in the period 2018 - 2030. Key to this is a Cardiff City Region body with sufficient powers and funding to deliver. Let’s see what the Minister says about city regions in Wales tomorrow!

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mark - excellent work on the metro proposals. Is there a reason (apert from cash) that the Coryton line and City lines can not be connected to form a circle? Even if not used for circular services (to avoid overloading the Queen St-Central section) it would allow Pontypridd line passengers to change at Radyr onto Coryton line??

Re: Electrification of the railways

Tallsmurf
Mark - excellent work on the metro proposals. Is there a reason (apert from cash) that the Coryton line and City lines can not be connected to form a circle? Even if not used for circular services (to avoid overloading the Queen St-Central section) it would allow Pontypridd line passengers to change at Radyr onto Coryton line??


As with all things it is cost/benefit Vs what else you could get for the money. The idea of a Cardiff circle line is not new and has much merit. However the costs for constructing the link are very high given the need to span both the river and the railway to get to the Radyr side of the tracks. It may happen in due course....but we may, for example, prefer to develop a trolley bus or Bus RT to link the city centre with new housing at Lisvane, NE Cardiff and Pontprennau; or perhaps a Valleys circle line or new stations on the relief lines, etc

What we need is a list of post VLE candidate Metro schemes and a robust methodology to assess what we do and dont do and in what order. That's what I tried to set out in the PDF I referenced earlier.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Tallsmurf
Mark - excellent work on the metro proposals. Is there a reason (apert from cash) that the Coryton line and City lines can not be connected to form a circle? Even if not used for circular services (to avoid overloading the Queen St-Central section) it would allow Pontypridd line passengers to change at Radyr onto Coryton line??


Because that would wreck the Forest Farm nature reserve, for little obvious benefit.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Lyndon
Tallsmurf
Mark - excellent work on the metro proposals. Is there a reason (apert from cash) that the Coryton line and City lines can not be connected to form a circle? Even if not used for circular services (to avoid overloading the Queen St-Central section) it would allow Pontypridd line passengers to change at Radyr onto Coryton line??


Because that would wreck the Forest Farm nature reserve, for little obvious benefit.


Not necessarily. The old track bed between Coryton and the M4 is still there - you could then run along the south edge of the M4 (e just north of the Forest Farm industrial site) and over the river?

Such a route was in the 2000 Cardiff LDP!

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mark - I understand about competing for ever decreasing pots of cash, and concentrating on the easy wins first. But if the concept of a circular connection was included in the design, then it could be added at some time in the future for minimum disruption.

Hope this all comes about.

Re: Electrification of the railways

As Mark said the idea of linking the Coryton and City lines to create a "city circle" has been around since at least the 1970s.

The problem with it is that there's not much point to a single-track circle line. To be useful the track would need to be doubled to allow for regular clockwise & anti-clockwise services. That's expensive and not justified by current or projected passenger flows.

Meanwhile a circular service would reduce the train paths available on the City Line for valley services into Cardiff Central - thus increasing pressure on the already over-stretched Queen Street corridor.

Re: Electrification of the railways

infrastructure development

here is a little bit of infrastructure for us, helping Wales connect with the outside world.

Now I'm not one for getting party political, but this government - in one stroke - has done more for Wales' infrastructure than the previous administration has done in 13 years

Re: Electrification of the railways

Will this mean direct services from Cardiff central to Heathrow or stopping at every stop along the GWML or changing at Reading?

Re: Electrification of the railways

Huw
Will this mean direct services from Cardiff central to Heathrow or stopping at every stop along the GWML or changing at Reading?



yes it will, there will be a spur built from Sloff to heefrow

Re: Electrification of the railways

I have been banging the drum for Heathrow rail Access for a number of years and presented evidence to the Westminster transport committe on this and HSR last year.

Re electrification....watch out for news on Monday...

Re: Electrification of the railways

Looks like your vision is taking place

Re: Electrification of the railways

Mark
Re electrification....watch out for news on Monday...


Around 9.00am apparently - and rumour is it's the best possible news.

Re: Electrification of the railways

Ash
Mark
Re electrification....watch out for news on Monday...


Around 9.00am apparently - and rumour is it's the best possible news.


that swansea gets bugger all and Cardiff gets even more

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