Hi all,

I'm the not-so-proud new owner of a special, built on a 1935 Seven chassis. It has a Reliant engine and a fairly decently-made aluminium boat tail body. It's a 10-footer really - from 10 feet away it looks like a cross between a Bugatti Type 35 and a bullnose Morris; upon closer inspection though one realises that it's little more than a cobbled together assembly of parts - though far from complete - that would be better suited at this stage as a static restaurant display or yard art than a functioning car.

It's missing lots of basic stuff - pedals, steering linkage, driveshaft, radiator, brakes, fuel lines etc, and none of the dials are connected to anything. That said, the chassis, axles etc are all great, and the body is a plus point - it's been pop-riveted together which is a pain, the frame is made from soft wood from B&Q or Homebase, so that'll need sorting, but there's definitely enough to work with.

(Lesson learnt though - that's the last time I buy something online described as '90% complete' without checking it first! Having said that, it was at the other end of the country and the price wasn't too bad...)

Anyway, my first thoughts were to cut my losses and flip it on, albeit with a more honest description, but I've always loved these little cars and over the last couple of days the challenge of trying to do the car justice and complete / rebuild it how it should be has become more appealing.

Trouble is I have little in the way of skills, so it'll be a steep learning curve!

It would be great to be able pick some experts' brains on here from time to time; and once I figure out the photobucket pic uploading process I'll post pics of how the car looks and what I'm doing with it.

Location: London

First question is - in the field of 7 Specials, are Reliant engines a viable / appealing alternative to original engines, or are they simply 'not done'? I know Austin sold the design to Reliant, so it's not really too much of a stretch, but in terms of final values as well as event eligibility it'd be good to know at this stage whether it's sensible to try and replace with an Austin Seven engine & gearbox, or whether what I have is perfectly fine.

Cheers!

Location: London

Sounds an interesting project, look forward to seeing your photos. No idea about the Reliant engine on how good or bad it is, the car has been modified, so imho, a different engine (if it works) is no big deal! Good luck with this!

Location: Saltdean, Brighton

The joys of the half-built special! We've been working on one started by others in the 'fifties for more decades than I care to remember!

Do you have full paperwork for yours? There's a lot of confusion about DVLA's current attitude to specials - if you haven't already, take a look at the "DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all" thread in this forum. Vast amounts of bewildering and conflicting stuff there. After six months I'm none the wiser, but it's worth thinking about before you spend a lot of time and money.

There do seem to have been quite a number of cheap (and not-so-cheap), unfinished specials on sale recently and I suspect there are a few being reverse-engineered back to original saloon specification. There may, or may not, be any connection with the DVLA situation.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Hi Gary,

Well whether it works or not is another question - that remains to be seen! I must admit though to fancying the idea of a 'pure special' if that's not a contradiction in terms, i.e. everything beneath the aluminium body being original Austin Seven gear, rather than a complete mongrel bodge. I suppose I'll have to keep guessing til some wise don says something like 'oh the pros and cons of having a Reliant engine are x, y, z etc, then I can make an informed decision.

Location: London

Hi Martin,

Oh joy indeed haha. That's interesting re lots of half-finished specials appearing for sale. I paid £3k for mine - had it correlated to the optimistic description it would have been worth it, but having seen the reality I reckon I've overpaid. That said, I got a very sound original chassis and running gear, decent body, Reliant engine and gearbox etc, so I'm not desperately out of pocket on it.

There was no paperwork unfortunately, but the chassis number is clear, so I'd intended to contact the DVLA to see about registering it. I'd read on another forum somewhere about the rules with regards to originality vs 'new car'; it didn't seem overly complicated to me I have to say - from recollection it seemed there was a points system, whereby 8 points was the minimum required to be able to claim it was an original car, with the chassis contributing x amount, the engine x amount etc. I figured I could probably cobble together 8 points worth from mine, if that was what it took.

That said, mine came with no lights, indicators etc, so I'm not even sure what the deal is regarding getting a car registered - does it have to conform with the rules of the road, i.e, be 'MOTable' to be able to get a registration? But then being 1935 it's not obliged to have an MOT so that confuses things further lol.

I've had dozens of classics over the years but never a pre-war car, never mind a bitsa special, so this is going to be a very steep learning curve haha

Location: London

Is the Reliant engine a side valve or a overhead valve? The latter are more modern and are all aluminium. The OHV engine does not fit the A7 chassis without some modification so the chassis may have been altered to suit. The OHV engine is a nice unit but if it is a non-runner they can be fiddly to rebuild as they have wet liners.
If you have no V5 with the car I would not be spending any money on it, cut your losses and look for something else!

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks - I think it's a sidevalve, but not 100%. I'll post a pic of it later today to be sure.

Was surprised by your suggestion that I cut my losses on it if there's no V5 - is that not a little extreme? Does that mean that any 7 Special out there isn't worth investing in if it doesn't have a V5?

Location: London

re your last question. You might find this thread of use:

(note that there are 8 pages...)

http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2099944454&frmid=5&msgid=994876&cmd=show

Location: Gard, France 30960

Hi Jonny.

The DVLA situation seems uncertain and fluid at the moment. There has been debate as to whether the "8-point" system still applies. As I and others have suggested, read through the thread on this forum - but make yourself comfortable with a large drink first!

My personal, confused view goes with the "Cut your losses" opinion; either that, or shut it away somewhere until the position has been clarified. Don't sink any money into it and don't draw any official attention for the time being.

Just out of interest, what is the chassis number?

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Hi Jonny.

I take it that this is "No.7", listed on Ebay as 272079376042.

If so, it has an OHV engine.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

The way I see it with the engine issue.Its nice to have the power of a modern unit,and the cheapness compared to building a good reliable and in Austin terms powerful unit,but do you want an Austin 7 or some kind of kit car?

Hi Martin,

Well spotted - yes that's indeed the car; the seller ended the auction early as he quite correctly reckoned that selling a car with the auction ending 48 hours before Xmas wasn't the brightest idea, so he intended to relist it in January for around £4k, I battered him down to £3k plus another £50 for his spare petrol tank, and felt I'd done well. Til it arrived and I realised he'd been more than a little flowery in his description.

Anyway, no point whinging, my mistake etc etc.

Still curious about the 'cut the losses' angle if I'm honest - if I tinkered with it til it was a gorgeous special, on the button, oozing '30s style etc, would it still essentially be worthless without a V5? And if I don't rock the boat as it were by altering any offialdom to the car, how then can I go about trying to establish how to register it with the DVLA?

By the way the chassis number is 240148.

Thanks!

Location: London

Cheers Reckless! (Or do I call you Monsieur Rat?!)

I'll pour a large coffee later and wade through the pages! Appreciate it.

Location: London

Hi Austin,

That's a good question. My preferred option really would be an Austin 7 Special, i.e. everything beneath the skin is Austin 7, the chassis, running gear, engine, gearbox, petrol tank, steering column, wheels etc, with a 'special' body on it.

That way I could have a car that would be fun etc, but which would also have some degree of desirability should I wish or need to ever sell it on.

That said, I'm extremely new to this whole scene (so please forgive any stupid questions!) and therefore still very much piecing together the 'rules' in terms of which route I should take.

That said, it's a nice problem to have - I've never had a pre-war car, and have lusted after this 20s/30s racing car style since I was a wee lad, (I remember taking family holidays in France in the '80s and slipping away from the pool and ball games to explore the local woods in the hope of unearthing an abandoned Bugatti!) so it's actually a lovely thing to look out the window and see this car parked in the garden!

Location: London

Location: London

Location: London

Location: London

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Location: London

Some pics of the little beast, showing what I think are the decent and not-so-decent aspects of it.

I must admit, even sat there like a rescue mongrel out front, she is growing on me. A lot.

However there's much to do if it's to be a proper car at any point, regardless of the V5 situation. Whoever built the aluminium body certainly had a degree of skill - it's not super expertly built but it's a very decent amateur job, however the front nose cowling is too far back - not only does it give the car a 'stubby' look at the front, but the engine fan snags the inner bodywork! So I'll need to extend that by 6-9 inches to balance everything out.

Plus so much of it is crap - the wood is softwood straight from B&Q; the 'leather' seats are from a cheap sofa, the wooden boards are cheap chipboard which hasn't even been sealed against moisture, etc etc.

Despite all that though, I think I'm falling for it though! It feels like a rescue dog that's just looking for a bit of love and proper care, and I'm a sucker for an underdog haha

Location: London

Hi Jonny.

Your chassis number is probably March 1936, certainly not 1935.

The most gorgeous, on-the-button car isn't going to be worth a lot if it can't be used on the road.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to register, but while a couple of years ago I'd have been quite confident that it could, now I just don't know.

My concern would be that if DVLA reject it now, or classify it as a modern kit car requiring unachievable Individual Vehicle Approval, it may be very difficult to resurrect it as an Historic Vehicle in the future when and if things become a little more relaxed.

It's your call a to what you do next, but I'd gather as much information as possible before doing anything at all. The forum discussion is as good a point as any to start.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Interestingly, the same seller is currently listing as separate items:

a. An identical body

b. A Reliant engine

c. A ruinous Ruby with no engine, but a "very good chassis".

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Hi Martin,

Again, very helpful, thanks!

Quite the quandary though eh? My options then are: do nothing, restore the car and risk it being torpedoed by the DVLA, or contact the DVLA now and risk them torpedoing the car before I can do anything.

Bloody bureaucrats lol

Food for thought indeed...

Location: London

Ah that is interesting; I hadn't realised he was selling an identical body. Perhaps an expert can tell me otherwise, but I do genuinely think it's a very decent body - the style is as close to a Bugatti T35 as you'll ever see on an Austin Special, and it's not badly made.

But the experience of buying a "90% complete" car and finding out that 60% complete would have been generous has left a bitter taste in the mouth...

Location: London

I think the Ebay seller has listed A7 type 'Specials' previously. I'm sure one or two of them have featured on here before. I have no knowledge of him but it might be that he has a production line running.

Sorry to say it but given the car's specification and the situation relating to the registration of such vehicles I'd have to say that the advice to cut your losses is something to consider seriously.

Steve

Edited to add: Here's another, this time with a Seven engine and registration number http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Austin-Seven-7-Special-Recreation-Racer-Tourer-/272042430533?nma=true&si=Jkpws%252B%252Bvjbs1ZqcQvI3qxeN3poc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

And here's another body: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Austin-Seven-7-Special-Body-Work-Tub-/272107969867?hash=item3f5ae61d4b:g:v0wAAOSwLnlWm9CD

The one above with the registration number was discussed on here previously http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2099944454&frmid=5&msgid=1001887&cmd=show

Location: North Yorkshire

I don't wish to dampen your enthusiasm for your acquisition Jonny, but beauty is a tenuous thing. I think your car looks like a cross between Bella Emberg and Tracey Emin, but even these fine ladies must have someone that loves them, somewhere. Just not my cup of tea I'm afraid, but it's all relative. I wish you luck with your project. Just be careful it doesn't turn into a pointless money pit. The DVLA thread is very relevant in your case I believe.

Location: Gard, France 30960

Jonny, remember that as you have bought the car from someone who appears to be a motor trader, you have statutory rights if you feel that it is not as described.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Steve
I think that you are correct, if you blow up the pictures of the detail on the off side body line on both the detail is different.

Location: Oakley ,Hants

Hi Steve,

Very interesting - I can tell you that most of the writeup for that car is pure guff haha. Oh well, it is what it is. If I'm honest, I don't like losing money, but on the other hand I have always wanted a car of this style, and I do like a challenge! Plus, I badly need to learn some decent car-fixing skills, and I reckon a Seven is probably the best machine to learn them on, since they're meant to be like glorified Meccano kits really. So I'll see it through and see how I go!

I mean, sorting out the bodywork wood and crap leather etc won't cost much at all except for time, and bits of linkage etc won't break the bank... So I'm game for seeing what I can make of it, and I'll just have to see what happens when I deal with the DVLA...

Location: London

I would think the Reliant engine fitted would complicate registration further.
You will find it difficult to get 3 pedals in the footwell unless you make a big bulge.
It is expensive to build a good Austin 7 engine.

Haha how very dare you! I think from the front bulkhead back is like a cross between Kate Moss and Rosie Huntingdon-Whiteley! But then it is all subjective... Seriously though, I think the lines are pretty gorgeous until you get to that too-short bonnet, but that can be improved upon...

Certainly when I went to the VSCC Annual Trials at Brooklands last year I saw a fair few cars that really did look like they'd fallen off the ugly tree and hit every branch, so I'm pretty pleased with the outline of what I've got.

Location: London

Thanks Martin, but I'm not sure a handful of old cars would constitute being classed as a motor trader. Last year I went a bit mad and bought over a dozen classics, then flogged all but a couple of them on again when I needed the money for something else, but I was just a regular Joe hoping to make a few quid when the time came to sell again, which is what I suspect this guy would be able to claim even if I could be bothered to pursue him legally...

Location: London

That's a good point about the pedals, and one I made to him when I emailed him my disappointment after it had been delivered!

I think I might call the DVLA, not divulge any specific info about MY car like the chassis number, but enquire in general terms about a Special which I've got which has an original chassis and running gear etc, a different age-related engine, but also the potential to buy the original engine also, and see where the conversation leads in terms of what is acceptable and what's frowned upon...

Location: London

Good luck with it. I suspect a lot of people are waiting for a 'test case' or two to go through the DvLA, before expending any energy at all with proceeding un registered projects.
Would be interesting to scrutinise the wording of the ad.
That doesnt look like all alloy from the pics.. Arent the lower sides steel sheet?

Really? I don't know about 'test case' but I'm happy to give them a poke and see if I can't find some kind of happy ending for my car!

The top parts are certainly alloy, but you're right about the lower rear end - that dusting of surface rust suggests steel. I'll know better when I start to try and remove the rivets to strip it.

The ad wording was:

Austin seven special project in the racer/tourer style. This is a special project I bought a couple of years ago and I would say its about 90 percent complete. It comes with a reliant engine, needs some painting and other bits and bobs doing, the engine needs a distributer top and leads but is pretty complete apart from that. This will make a cracking little hill climber/racer when complete.

It is built on a solid Austin 7 LWB chassis believed to be 1935, it has chassis number attached, all running gear is Austin 7 including front and rear axles and cable brakes and steering column. Comes with flip top petrol cap but will need a tank fitting, has all the extras seen in the pictures including lights and belts and spare wheel.

This will be a great little head turning racer with not a lot of work. Selling on a 7 day 99p listing with no reserve and I will be advertising elsewhere so reserve the right to end the listing at any time before the auction ends. I will require a 10% bank transfer deposit of the winning bid within 24 hours of auction ending and the rest cash on collection. Any questions or to view please call Adam on 07964300900. Thanks.

Location: London

With an Austin seven engine it would be eligible for the Bert Hadley series of sprints and hillclimbs,great fun at low cost.Suitable trailer on ebay at this very moment.

Location: The Pits,Leicester

Thanks Richard - have you got a link to it?

Location: London

Being a simple country boy I had to google 'Rosie Huntingdon-Whiteley'. Goodness me.

I think I had better go and have a potter in the cold garage for while.

Good luck with your efforts Jonny!

Location: North Herts

Ha. Not having Googled her before I was curious upon reading your post, so did so.

Phew.

Got room in that cold garage for one more?!

Location: London

Where does the radiator go? I can't see any space for it. I hate to say it, but if the frame hasn't been constructed from the correct material (a pretty key issue) it would suggest other problems ahead.

Oh you're right, but as I mentioned in an earlier post I'll be looking to extend the front forwards by a foot or so. Really shouldn't be too hard, but it'll a) create space for the radiator and fan etc, and b) solve the car's aesthetic issues, which all relate to its stubby nose!

Location: London

Aaaaarrrrghhhh!!!!!

I give up!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Sorry pal, what's up?

Location: London

Jonny. Look at any open tourer from the 1930s and you'll see that the radiator is generally neither much forward or rearwards of the front axle. If you extend the front of your special by a foot then it will quite frankly, look stupid. The problem is the Reliant engine/gearbox - they're too far forward. Look at an Austin Seven, not a special. The back of the block/cylinder head is fairly tight up to the bulkhead leaving space for the fan & radiator to sit on top of the front axle/chassis nosepiece.

I think you should get down to basics with this car. Either sell it on as it is or bite the bullet and expect to shell out to get it properly sorted otherwise it'll just look more of a dog than it already is. Basically the reliant engine & gearbox are too long compared to the Austin unit and it's pushing it all out of proportion. The problem is that the front radius arms and chassis cross member won't make your job of moving it all further back easy.

As you say you're not very skilled in the art, treat yourself to a copy of Bill Williams book Austin Seven Specials.

Right I'm off round to Martin's with a cup of hot tea and a couple of valium.

Location: Gard, France 30960

Thanks Rat, I appreciate the experience. I thought even as I'd typed it that a' foot' was too much, but elsewhere in this thread I'd written that I'd be extending the front maybe 6-9 inches. Which I will - it's easily done. And I'm not looking to other Austin Sevens for aesthetic inspiration really; I want to continue the design's nod towards 1920s Grand Prix car silhouettes. I have a folder full of pics I've saved of '20s & '30s specials and racing cars and many of them have radiators either several inches forward or up to a foot back from the front axle.

You're right about the Reliant engine and gearbox being too long, but I've pretty much committed to acquiring an original Austin Seven engine and gearbox, both for registration and design qualities. And I've actually got a copy of the William's book on order - whilst I'm not very skilled in the art, I have a lot of Cafe Racers, vintage motorcycles and classic cars, so I trust my own sense of design appreciation very strongly lol

Finally, you're the second person on the thread to refer to the car as being a dog - it's anything but! It has a 'difficult' front end, but to my eye the actual lines of the bodyshell are very pleasing indeed - I bought the car not because it looked like an Austin Seven Ruby etc (it doesn't) but because it's a very good first step towards creating an evocation of the type of pre-war racing car design that I love.

I'll be keeping this one and spending what it takes to make it the car that I want...

Location: London

I have kept out of this discussion because Austin 7 specials are not my interest but for information on how to build a proper Austin 7 special I would suggest you read the postings under -

Ian Williams Jul 22, 2015 'Special Body Build'

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

I wish you luck and await with breath baited for the finished product.
Right telly time...

Location: Gard, France 30960

Thanks Tony, much appreciated. I'm currently waist deep in the looooong DVLA thread - I'll be diving into your recommendation as soon as I've finished!

Location: London

Sorry Jonny, but in this forum you have a resource with probably hundreds of years of combined knowledge and sometimes bitter experience.

Quite a few of us actually earn our livings working on Sevens.

You've asked for advice and have prompted more responses in a short time than I've seen in a long while. They're all saying, with varying degrees of politeness, the same thing. If you choose to ignore sound advice, you're absolutely free to do so.

Good luck! - Really!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".