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I thought it would be a good idea for enthusiasts building specials to refer to the recent thread re the VSCC Herefordshire trial as the content went on to discuss problems in obtaining age-related registration numbers from the DVLA.
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
Is the concern when you only have a chassis number and are looking to get an age related plate, or any time you want to get a new V5 and don't have a complete matching numbers car?
I have a chassis with an uncancelled buff log book, engine number doesn't match although type does. The reg number doesn't appear to show up on anyone else's car.
Andy
Location: Oxfordshire
Andrew,
The car described in the Herefordshire Trial thread does not have a V5 or other documentation but had a number plate attached to the original as- purchased 50's bodied special which formed the basis of the refurbished and rebodied car in question. My special also does not have a V5 or any other documentation as it is made up from spare parts. I hope someone else on our website with more knowledge relating to your situation may be able to answer your question.
Cheers,
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
From a number of e-mails ive had on the subject since i asked it seems its to do with cars with no documentation with some new components. E.G Body.
A problem no doubt caused by dealers in exotica who build cars from scratch.
Build a car out of spares using an old body it seems all would he well.
We shall be 'rebuilding' our GE cup body from thr body hoop and transmission tunnell. Lol.
I can see the DVLA's concern with monocoque vehicles where a sound structure is a major function but for ones with a chassis and a weedy plywood and ali structure on top is a different matter. Can you have an age-related reg. for a chassised car without a body? ie just a seat and a pair of goggles.
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
It is my GE Brooklands that has been the subject of discussion on the VSCC website.
As things stand at present, if you are rebuilding or restoring a car and you do not have a V5, if you put a new replica body on the chassis the DVLA will not give you an age related number.
They will require you to destroy the existing identity of the car, have a DVLA VIN number stamped on the chassis, and submit it for IVA (individual vehicle approval).
The IVA is a test intended for cars less than 10 years old!
If you replace any major component (the DVLA now regard the body of a car with a separate chassis as a component) with a new part or a part less than 25 years old, it becomes a new car in their eyes.
Moral, any body you put on your special or rebuild must be 25 years old or more.
Before you ask, I took my case via my MP to the Minister of Transport. I got nowhere!
Location: North Yorkshire
Hi Malcolm
This may or may not help! My special has a new home made body on a Ruby chassis and I had no problems with DVLA. I didn't have a V5 but did have a reg number AND certificate from the "Kithead Trust" confirming the cars original registration. If you have a chassis number and reg number this organisation may be able to help, but they don't have all the registration records so it depends upon which county you original car was registered in.
Howard
Location: Slightly less sunny mid Wales
Howard
So you basically used the V765 route without problems?
Howard,
Has your case been dealt with since September 2014? It seems that the DVLA changed the way they interpret their guidelines around that time.
My car had an original number plate issued in London in May 1929 and a very clear chassis number of similar date. The car was authenticated by the PWA7C DVLA officer but all to no avail. I requested that the original number be retained but this was dismissed. I understand that the licensing records for London were destroyed in the Blitz but with all due respect that was not my fault!
Location: North Yorkshire
Malcom
The presence of an original registration plate has always been irrelevant unless you have documentary evidence to back up that the car held that plate.
You have to link the 'car' you have via its chassis number to the registration via documentary evidence. As Howard notes, sometimes it can be found via historical licensing records, or indeed if an original RF60 'Log Book' survives and has a chassis number noted in it. The old Tax disk route seems now to have been closed.
If you can do this, you go the V765 route to claim the number.
If you cannot, or do not know what the original number was, then you follow the 'age related route' and the 'Reconstructed Classic Vehicles route'. Presumably this is the route you had to take?
Out of interest, and as all the documents that the authorized club will have used are available on the internet, what did you put in the top box on the V627/1 form against Chassis/Bodyshell?
It seems the points system has gone, and the only two markers are now
''built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle''
''a true reflection of the marque''
It does seem to rule out new bodies on a car looking for an age related plate.
Basically someone killed the goose that lays the golden egg.
Location: Near Bicester.
it seems to have made a rolling chassis sans documents worthless!
If this is now the case (it wasn't so 2 years ago) then my 75% complete special built of genuine A7 parts but with a new home made body and no documentation whatsoever is pointless. If it has a "Q" plate does this also mean as well as needing EU glass in it's tiny windscreen frame which I have spent many hours constructing, it would need many other non-compliant features sorting out (am I allowed to have a plywood body for example)? I have read the 65 page IVA guide with all its legalese content but cannot determine if as well as the £199 inspection fee the car would also be liable for full price road tax.How many suspect vehicles have so far been identified by the DVLA and have had their logbooks invalidated? Does anyone know of such cases? Is an organisation such as the VSCC going to ban Q plate vehicles from the club? I am not a member so I am unaware of any discussions so far made within the club. It all seems rather grim.
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
This may be a stupid suggestion but is the "kit-converted vehicles" route rather than the "reconstructed classic vehicles" a solution to at least keeping an age related plate?
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconverted-vehicles
(Sorry, but I'm unable to make the address a hyperlink)
Location: Oxfordshire
Hi All
My special was registered in November 2013. I can't remember the form Hedd😞
Is the current tightening of rules retrospective? If so a great many cars will be off the road!
Howard
Location: Mid Wales
not wishing to derail the thread .. but what do you do when you do have a 'special', but it has the original number plate, matching chassis number, all on a V5C *but* it still has 'saloon' not 'sport' as body type (or something) ?
is it a case of let sleeping dogs lie, as sending the V5C off for a change to body type could all go horribly wrong?
thanks
Location: United Kingdom
Where's the FBHVC when it's needed? Surely this is just the sort of stupid legislation that the FBHVC was set up to deal with?
Meanwhile, here are a couple of suggestions: Salvage one of the derelict specials that seem to crop up on eBay regularly, and use the body as a temporary fit on your special in order to get it registered. Then the body can be removed, hired out or sold on to another deserving cause! This solution depends on how a '25 year old' body can be authenticated...
Alternatively, use an original Austin body - box saloon or Ruby - which is beyond economic repair; all you need is the bulkhead, floor and seats and you have an American-style Speedster. Nobody has said the 'body' has to be pretty, practical or even complete! Again, the body can be passed on to another special builder once the registration process has been completed
Location: Sherwood Forest
What's so frustrating and annoying is that those of us (the vast majority, I'm sure) who want to do things legally have so many obstacles to overcome in order to register a car, when at the same time you don't have to look very hard to spot plenty of examples of registrations having been sold off cars that clearly don't stand a cat in Hell's chance of passing the MOT required to effect a transfer.
Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T
I cannot help thinking that the DVLA will obtain a financial bonus with the new regulations by hanging on to the dwindling supply of age-related type numbers to be sold on via their registration number sales department for large sums of cash. Or am I just being a little bitter?
Dave
Location: Sheffield
Location: Devon
Location: Sherwood Forest
Late last year I had my numberplate reissued to me on the basis of an RF60 where the chassis number section actually showed a body number instead. Obviously the body was long gone but the DVLA were happy to give me back the plate once it had been established that the main components were all 1935-ish, apart from the engine. The new V5 shows the chassis number that was stamped on the car. The body is all new-build. It seems I got lucky?
The crux of the matter is if this is an isolated occurrence?, or a blanket problem?.
If its a one off, it could be put down to a number of things.
For example on the built up vehicle form (V627) you note that you have a 'new body' in the table against Chassis/bodyshell, and Mr DVLA man thinks you've re-shelled the vehicle. Instant Q plate. Refer to the kit built vehicle documents for the points system, you must have 8 points, 5 of which must come from the original chassis/bodyshell/
Whearas you put Original component. Austin Manufacture circa Autumn 1929 chassis number XXXXX. He doesnt think this.
Clearly if it is a blanket problem then the FBVHC need to take heed.
My experience of the DVLA is even when they are at fault, they are very unlikely to accept it. The appeals procedure is lip service.
Perhaps bodywork should be referred to as 'Coachwork' when dealing with the DVLA?.
It seems to me that Hedd makes very valid points. I have no idea how Malcolm might extricate himself from the tangle which DVLA has created for him but, is this a one off error by a single person incapable of lateral thought (at DVLA I mean, I am aware that Malcolm is no fool!)or is it a "jobsworth" interpretation of some revised guidelines likely to be repeated by DVLA in it's entirety from now on until someone changes the guidelines???
Ian Mc
Location: Shropshire
This has been confirmed as a concious change of the way the pre-existing rules have been interpreted by the DVLA and not a one-off mistake Ian.
Steve
Location: North Yorkshire
The offending bit of text is copied below.
Get an age-related registration number
DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:
built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
a true reflection of the marque
The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:
has been inspected
is a true reflection of the marque
is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old
They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.
DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts
Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
It would seem that avoiding the words "Replica" and "New" are vital. Maybe incorporating a few bits of an old body can make it a restored body?
Location: Devon
So if you build up the engine with a new pheonix crank? Or you fit new brake drums? New wheel rims? New radiator/surround? Most barn finds with no documentation could conceivably end up with all the above brand new parts as well as more......bearings, tyres etc etc....
Can of worms springs to mind...
The only slightly upbeat note is that barn finds with no v5 may come down in price as it will be difficult to turn them into specials.
I sincerely hope that something can be done for those genuine special builders who find themselves in a worrying situation here, as a special builder myself you have my very best real sympathies.
Steve.
RIP SPECIAL BUILDING.
Location: South East Cornwall
Another interesting thought:
Location: Sherwood Forest
I was going to say "could be a realy good time to see where your MP stands on all this sh-one-t" but, 1) he may not be re-elected, 2) he won't have a clue what you're talking about, 3) he'd lie anyway.
Ian Mc.
Location: Shropshire
Being a trader myself,
I've got to bring this one up.
If all this pushes people away from specials and replicas.
That's a lot of new parts that will no longer be sold, and have no reason to be produced.
Wich will be a knock on for the rest of Austin 7 owners.
Location: Leics
I have come up with an analogy which might help explain the situation to those without an understanding of pre war cars.
"A vintage car is a little like a thatched cottage, whilst the structure can be maintained, the bit on top sometimes has to be renewed."
I guess this might well be refined a little, but maybe it will set minds working.
Stuart
Location: Devon
Now Mr Tony and Mr Charles P are getting also to root of problem – that DVLA is big filing cabinet and must be doing filing only and that FBHVC is abdicating from responsibilities by doing nothing.
Bugatti that is not Bugatti, Riley with 2 seats missing, Austin with sporty body; these are not important issue now. First FBHVC must make coup and be taking control.
Thank you.
I can see in a small way the DVLA side in this, if there is a worry of new bugattis being registered as old.
The Austin 7 is in a similar position. Literally every part can be bought new, instead of restoring old parts.
The problem with this is, you need stations all over the country were vehicles can be checked that new cars are not being passed off as vintage cars.
Now call me stooped, but didn't they get rid of all the VRO checking stations.
Location: Leics
I've sent an email to Mike Burgess (Austin Seven Owners Club DVLA Representative) asking for guidance on this as I am getting to the point where I want to apply for an age related number for the special I’m building. Trouble is, with a brand spanking new Rod Yates body on my special it, doesn't look like I will be able to get one.... The thought of a "Q" plate on it just doesn't thrill me at all...
Will feedback if/when I get a reply.
I am purposely building my current special to be as authentic as I can get it but it's full of "new" parts courtesy of our cherished suppliers where the original part was worn, beyond repair or missing..... Most of these new parts are not even visible (except the body of course lol) as they are buried inside engines, wheels hubs, gearboxes etc..
Must admit, I have recently been thinking of my next Austin Seven project but am now having a re-think (I have access to a couple of rough barn finds that have no paperwork etc. via my father).. Obviously the DVLA have nothing better to do than take an oversized sledge hammer to crack a peanut sized problem…
Email sent to the FBHVC too. Will feedback any reply..
Location: Horsham, W Sussex
FBVHC organised a successful petition regarding the licence requirements for three-wheelers. Perhaps they could repeat this on this topic. If the policy continues it is likely to have serious repercussions on the vintage restoration business sector which is growing and providing work .training and passing on traditional craft skills to a new generation.Write to them and your MP!
Location: Ripon N. Yorks
Friends, please remember that this is an entirely open forum that anyone in the world can access.
Sharing the specifics of your car is not only of interest to Seveners but the DVLA who trawl sites like this, your best intentions, and transparent honesty, could be your downfall at the end of day.
For your own sake please consider what you share publicly on this matter carefully.
Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T
Location: Sherwood Forest
And I think I should add, I agree with Martin Prior: this is not about the allocation of age-related plates. Suitable registration numbers are a finite commodity which is rapidly disappearing, which is why the sixties-style numbers-before-letters are now being issued to post-1930 vehicles. The time will come, maybe quite soon, when these too will be used up, and maybe 1963 A-prefix numbers will have to be allocated.
What I object to is the unnecessary defacing of original chassis numbers and the consequent requirement for rebuilt vehicles to acquire an inapproriate new identity and to meet unrealistic modern construction and safety requirements. These are NOT new vehicles - replicas, clones, or whatever you like to call them - we are talking about, these are at worst reconstructions built around original components which can be accurately dated.
We have not yet reached the Bugatti stage where the components from one original vehicle can be distributed to create half a dozen 'original' vehicles, nor are we talking about brand-new Pur Sang 'Alfa Romeos' or 'Bugattis' which have been registered as genuine Alfa Romeos or Bugattis of the 1920s or 1930s.
Location: Sherwood Forest
In stark contrast to this thread, I'm amazed at how relatively easy it appears to be to get original registration marks re-issued to vintage aircraft defunct or exported for decades, or even ones totally reconstructed, nominally using a few fragments of ancient wreckage.
Maybe the CAA should look after the licensing of old cars!
Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T
The most important point that some of you dont seem to have got yet is the requirement for an IVA test.
A special built using authentic parts and techniques just will not ever in a month of Sundays pass this very strictly enforced and enacted test.
The issue of a less than pretty number plate really is the least of your worries. Without the ability to pass IVA our specials will be off road or rally field exhibits only.
And let's not forget our own type of people have contributed to this with all the dubious reconstructions and modern built Bugattis et al.
We are potentially headed for a problem and the FBHVC need to start making the case to DVLA particularly regarding the fact that we are using original chassis with numbers which therefore already exist as vehicles.
I'm afraid this has been coming for a while, since the kit car world was forced to behave itself with SVA and now IVA. it was a matter of time before dodgy recreations were hit, with us being innocent victims in the crossfire. Just wait till they go after the bikers with their custom bikes a lot of which have rather dubious identites on new custom frames etc etc.
Lets hope FBHVC have some balls and get it sorted.
Steve (former special builder).
Location: South East Cornwall
On careful reading of the DVLA website the crucial form is V627/1
which can be found here.
It lists the major components they want answers for and states:
"Chassis/bodyshell" - top of the column has the words "delete as appropriate".
Surely in our case the chassis and its date and number are required and the word bodyshell is deleted.
You also need all the information to register a new vehicle and an inspection report from your A7 club DVLA representative.
Newer monocoque vehicles would delete chassis and quote body id.
IMHO Big end has said all that needs to be said.
Location: Ripon N. Yorks
Location: Horsham
Further to the reply I got above I've just received this from the FBHVC...
Dear Robbie,
Thank you for your email to our Secretary which has been passed to me.
We are fully aware of the current situation with applications for age related registrations for cars with a chassis where the body has been replaced and at the present time your fears are, unfortunately, well founded. We have raised this matter with DVLA as we consider that the stance they are taking is unrealistic. This will be progressed further at a forthcoming meeting. Meanwhile there is little advice that we can offer but we will, of course, keep our members fully informed of any changes.
Are you happy for us to use the information you have given us, but not your name, as an example of the problems we foresee if DVLA stick to their present approach?
Regards,
Ian Edmunds
DVLA Liaison
FBHVC
I'm now in a quandary as to let them use the details of my car or not. Suppose it can't hurt?
Location: Horsham, West Sussex