So we have a failing economy, higher unemployment and now we have falling literacy standards compared to England. Yet some still see devolution and/or welsh labour as being a success for Wales. Such people are obviously lacking common sense of course.

Failing literacy standards? Bloody hell...

Since we're kind of on the subject, why did we even go for devolution in the first place?

Because some people think it is important that your own self serving dim witted bottom feeders make decisions on how to ruin your life rather than someone else's self serving dim witted bottom feeder

The fundemental problem is a lack of a Welsh media. Most people read London based newspapers that pay no attention to Welsh politics ( it is rather dull and most of their sales would be outside Wales so why would they ) our only newspaper the Western mail is not really newspaper it's a magazine for Rugby supporters and even that will probably end up being a weekly edition eventually. Then there is tv unfortunately although BBC News and others have made an effort to point out health and education stories that only apply in England that doesn't compensate for the fact that they don't cover much going on in Wales, there was some research that showed BBC News gave more coverage to that TB infected cow in West Wales a few years ago than the negotiations to for a coaltion government in Wales.
The result of this we have a population of people completely ignorant of their politicians and government. I read something recently that Nigel Farage was more well known in Wales than Carwyn Jones yet his part has not a single member in the assembly! Our only hope is if something like income tax powers was devolved to the assembly then people would begin to take notice and our politicans would be more carefull or held account more for the decisions they make.

Some people believe that important decisions should be made by people whom live and work in the nation... In a Parliement in that nation... In fact these some people were in such significant numbers that they won a democratic election... The problems of this ole Celtic country are significant but it is all the better now that the people of this nation can decide its destiny...

give it a break. We're going backwards. It was hardly a ringing endorsrment of the peoples view in 1997. 50.3% of those that voted voted yes whereas 49.7% of those that voted voted no. That does not mean everyone who was eligible to vote did so. in fact only 50.1% who were eligible to vote actually voted. this is less than the turnout for the UK general elections. you could therefore argue quite successfully that the Welsh place more emphasis on the UK election than governing themselves.

Devolution has been poor for Wales. Falling education, failing economy, lower living standards, wages falling even in comparison with the rest of the UK, unemployment higher than the rest of the UK.

Isn't that the fault of the Labour party the process of devolution?

If Wales really were to become independent, we'd probably be classed as a Third-World Nation.

Failing economy - that seems to be a global pattern - when we were totally subservient to Wedtminster we did not have a University in the UK top 40 - the Assembly inherited this legacy - The Barnett formula is regarded as inappropriate and antiquated across the political spectrum in Wales - we do not have the clout to convince Whitehall to change such an unfair system... the Assembly also inherited a single motorway and no electrified rail line in Wales... The infrustucture is as Lord Crow said Third World... It's the challenge of all Welsh politicians to steer a clearer path with such an adverse foundation left by the London Government... A weak capital is letting the country down

more nonsense from those who don't know a thing. the global economy is growing and has been for years


rubbish, Cardiff has been part of the Russell Group for years.

and made it worse we can both agree on that i'm sure


agreed - we get £9bn more per annum than we put in and we are heavily subsidised by the English. i'm sure you'll agree that any self respecting Welshman would prefer to stand on his own two feet and as such we should insist on only getting out what we put in


we could always just give the £9bn back, i'm sure Whitehall would take it.


so, you appear to be against HS2 which will knock minutes off London to Birmingham but you are for electrification that will knock minutes of Swansea to London. try and be consistent please


that is because we prefer benefits and handouts in Wales rather than infrastructure and development


this london Government - is this the government that is funding electrification of Swansea to London?

Ok the economy is on the up everywhere apart from Wales.. How long has Cardiff been part of the Russel Group? Not a single mile of electrified line in Wales.. Just one motorway .., Bristol alone has four M Roads - how much has been invested in London' s infrastructure in the last 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or even the last century.. How much did Tottenham Court Road Tube station cost? king's Cross? st Pancras? How much did the trams cost in Nottingham? Or Manchester? How many M roads does Manchester have? Paid for by that London Government that utilises that Barnett formula.. I pay my taxes.. As do thousands of people who work for my company.. Yet the infrustruture is inferior? Don't talk to me about benefits - don't bang on about education my daughter went to a comp and got her 10 A's and a B.. Create the jobs here in Wales.. Let the Taffies make their own decisions cos those in the Metropolis have little time for us

The article says that they took a sample of 2,000 Welsh children and tested them when they were 7 years old but doesn't tell us what type of primary education they had undergone. We have no information with regards to their mother tongues or home language. If you see this article here from the Syniadau Blog http://syniadau--buildinganindependentwales.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/reading-ability-in-welsh-and-english.html you will see that reading ability is higher in Welsh than it is in English for roughly the same age group. The author goes into some detail about why this is but some of the 7 year olds in the BBC article would be in a Welsh Medium primary school. In WM education English is not introduced until year 3, the age at which those children were tested, this could have an effect on the results. Also, those in WM education could not have any previous experience in English as the language that they speak at home would is Welsh or sometimes, in far rarer but not uncommon circumstances, another 'foreign' language with a greater chance for other languages being spoken at home in EM education. This issue isn't addressed by the article whatsoever. So it is fair to say that there would be a fair few in WM education within those 2,000 with some of them coming from Welsh speaking households who have only just started to learn to read and write in English.

With regards to the economy the top 5 areas for workless households have been announced today by the ONS and there is not a single Welsh region there. Both the Central and Gwent Valleys have now improved, or a more correct statement would be that the others have worsened. The top 5 worst for workless households are Glasgow, Liverpool, Kingston upon Hull, Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Would you now say that the SNP has failed Scotland? Have the main parties failed England?

The Welsh Government has no control, yet, over wages which is why the latest bill has been sent to the Supreme Court and then we shall see what will happen when the judge gives his verdict.

The situation in the Central and Gwent Valleys has improved. Is this down to devolution or a Tory Government?

May I once again ask When did Cardiff University join the influential Russell Group?

1998

WG did not sit as a legislature until 1999 so your claim is bogus.

WG is responsible for economic development. if everywhere is on the up except Wales look towards WG


answred elsewhere, it was invitedto join and it wasn't a result of devolution


are you for HS2 or not?


disingenuous. Bristol is on hte M4 as is Cardiff and Swansea. Bristol is also on the M5 as it is the main route south from the north west. Pewrhaps we should build a motorway in to the sea. Bristol also has the M32 and the A49(M) I beleive it is called. Both roads are equivalent to our PDR in practice and are only motorways in name. they provide no greater functionality than the PDR or the Eastern/Western avenue A road.


that's because London shits money. they can afford to pay for it.


you will be aware than Wales per capita gets something like £1k more than England. Yet you still complain despite England is the nation that gneerates the tax receipts. you need to make your mind up whehter you want Wales to stand on its own two feet or whether you want a bigger Barnett begging bowl.


that's because whilst we pay taxes, we don't pay anyhwere near enough to get the infrastructure that other places can afford as they pay significantly more in tax than we do.


how do you propose we create jobs? the topography doesn't really lend itself to the industry that we really need. We have a bureaucratic socialist WG that is business unfriendly. Why would busines want to locate here and be faced with comrade Hart and her triumphant march towards communism? you need your bumps felt if you think business prefer statist control freakery over the free market and no bureaucracy

So did Cardiff University become part of the Russell Group after education was devolved to Wales?
Bristol has four M Roads Wales has one... London controls road building...
How many M Roads does Manchester have?
Not a mile of electrified line in Wales - why?
So since devolution the Millenium Stadium, The Millenium Centre, 5* Hotels, the CCS, The Liberty, St David's 2, as this is a Cardiff Developments forum open your eyes and see what has been built since 1997... Admiral when did they start out?
Why is the investment in London so inordinate compared to Wales?

So you want to build a Motorway to the sea - are you bananas?
Why not build a Motorway on the A 470?

So London excretes money Jantra - how much did Tottenham Court Road Tube Station refurbishment cost? Compare that with Cardiff Central Station? Many many of us in Wales are hard working and pay our taxes.. How dare you tell me to go with a begging bowl to London!!!

Do you really think all that development happened due to devolution. Good grief.

Admiral came to Cardiff as a result of work done by the wda. Did you know the welsh government took over that role and since then hasn't attracted anything like another admiral.

You keep going on about motorways. If we renamed eastern avenue would it make you feel better?

Education was devolved to Wales starting in 1999. What did WG do in 1999 that allowed Cardiff university to begin the process of joining in 1997 with admittance in 1998?

You're the one asking for more than we get under Barnett. You want more without putting anything in

This discussion is not profitable in any way... The ludicrous right wing bull is just tedious waffle that I beg to differ.. The benefits of devolution however are there for everyone to see..

Keep going on about motorways - well answer the questions it's not hard
do you know the difference between an A road and a M Road?

Perhaps you can tell us how the m32 differs from eastern avenue or how the m49 differs from the PDR?

*Opens page*

*Sees the shit being slung back-and-forth*

*Logs out*

The difference between M road Status and A road status is maintaince... Also stature... So say employment a Company is looking to relocate a distribution centre regional - national - Continental - it sets out criteria - skills base - available base - multiple M roads within a certain radius - oops - Cardiff - South Wales falls down - north Wales falls down - mid Wales out of the running - Airline is seeking a new UK hub - criteria infrustruture - multiple M Roads - Brum, Brizzle, Manny, Scouse all tick that box - Cardiff - oh no - a crash on the single M road and its shut down the one horse town -
Trying to be concise that is the difference between A road and M road..
the PDR and the A470 should be upgraded and I think an M road leading from the M4 or Cardiff Bay to Barry and the Airport should be considered

Lord Crow asks a question about why we voted for devolution - gets an answer - which then gets discussed and scrutinised - The Crow flies the debating nest - wittering about excrement being flung back and forth - tidy - sound - right on - let's go...

So what you're saying is fundamentally, there is no difference between the m32 and eastern avenue or the m49 or the PDR.

Did you know Germany has more motorway miles than any other nation other than the USA. Did you know Germany has less three lane motorways than the uk but has plenty of two lane motorways or - as we call them in the uk - a roads. If you include a roads then the uk trumps Germany by a long way.

Those that know the m32 know its no different than eastern avenue. Maybe we should all focus on style over substance in the manner you prefer

These distribution companies that look for a motorway network. Did they choose Bristol with its four motorways or did they choose Swansea on Fabian way? Think amazon then come back to me

I think he's referring to the name calling rather than mature discussion most of us would prefer

Think amazon and you dwelling right there on the benefits of Devolution.
The Autobahn is a superior road system to that in the UK.
If Jantra think that Eastern Avenue and the M32 are the same - then that is the world of Jantra.
The reality is that Bristol has an unfair advantage over Cardiff bestowed on them by the Civil Service of Whitehall

So England subsidises Wales - so the 13 billion pound Cross Rail project currently being constructed - where is the Investment in Wales subsidised by England?

Or maybe the 6 Billion pound Government funded Thameslink project...
Who is subsidising who?
We pay our taxes..
I want our share

Would you care to say why you think the autobahn system is better than the motorway network? Having just used it extensively over the summer I'd be interested to hear why you think that

As someone who uses the m32 and eastern avenue at least once a week, I cannot see what is different about them. Again perhaps you could care to explain?

Finally, I think I understand. All that is good is a result of devolution. With respect to amazon it's because there was a cheap local workforce. It had nothing to do with devolution. I've worked there - have you?

We prefer to spend out block grant on welfare and benefits. England spends its block grant on investment. Wales still gets more per head than England, we just spend it on different things.

You can't turn round and say well we've spent our grant in things like welfare and veggies, its not fair that you spend it on infrastructure. That is the 'benefit' of devolution.

Wales could invest in infrastructure if it wanted to. It is also correct that London gets the lions share as London creates most of the wealth.

For someone who is into innovotative radicalism you seem to want to be tied to Westminster and the treasury. Weird

Mature discussion and name calling - Self serving dim witted bottom feeders - who wrote this?

I could go into the superior autobahn but that would be a digression from this issue - benefits of devolution

No I do not and never have worked in Amazon - I work in heavy industry - for a company that spends millions on Rail Freight and would benefit and be more competitive if we had apt improvement of rail infrustruture

So the concept of M Road and A road is to abstract to distinguish - please - get a grip - you are pulling your own pants down

that was a generic catch all term for politicians everywhere.

why do you post posts in quick succession?

threads digress - I'm all ears

Wales prefers to spend its money on welfare and benefits. if you want a business friendly government that promotes better infrastructure then vote for a party such as the conservatives.

hardly. The M4 and cowbridge road west are hardly similar although they are a motorway and an a road. However, the M32 and Eastern avenue, despite being motorway and an a road are very similar.

you are saying Bristol has 4 motorways. 2 of them because it is on an east/west and north/south crossroads. Cardiff only has 1 because it is on an east/west axis. however, the other 2 - the M32 and M49 are no different from the PDR from J32 and Eastern Avenue from J29. They are both two lane roads with a hard shoulder. perhaps you can explain why you think they are different because someone like me who uses them regularly really cannot see any fundamental difference

A motorway and A roads are two different category's of road.
They would be maintained differently - I assume that Central Government pay a higher % of the maintainance of a Motorway than that of an A road - the local authority picks up the remainder of the costs - therefore an M Road is significantly better maintained and less of a burden for a local authority... Why Eastern Avenue and the A470 do not have motorway status I do not know.

With regards to whom I vote - do not assume that I would not vote Tory - I hope that the Conservatives can flourish in the Senedd and find solutions to the many problems we face...
I would like to know what the budget for Transport (Rail and the Highways) and compare it with the budget for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

So you’re not arguing over the utility of the roads but you’re saying Bristol is better off because central government maintains 4 roads compared to Cardiff’s 1. I despair. You were making out that Bristol had 4 motorways to Cardiff 1. When looked at in detail the roads are of similar style and quality. Bristol doesn’t do better at roads, it does better at road classification.

And the investment that comes with the road classification... This applies all along the Welsh border The M40 in Ross on Wye - the same in north Wales with the A55 - numerous M roads as soon as you leave Wales for Cheshire and Merseyside..
Whitehall looks after England... Devolution must work for Wales

you make a valid point about why the A449 isn't an extension of the M50. I suppose it must be to do with the proliferation of roundabouts.

I disagree about the whitehall comment. if England really didn't care then Wales would have at least £9bn less funding per annum

Maybe without having lived in London it's difficult to understand the Metropolitan attitude and the indifference to the Principality

cities Jantra has lived in

Cardiff
Manchester
london
frankfurt am

cities Jantra has worked in

Edinburgh
Bristol
Paris
Stoke

just saying

So having worked in Paris you understand the Parisians indifference to the Provinces and French Basque and French Catalonia...
Anyhow, we must beg to differ on this occasion I am suffering from sleep deprivation and all I need is to start having to explain the difference between city and Metropolitan life

I understand la Parisienne indifference to everyone, never mind the provinces !!!

Getting the thread back on track the report in the Guardian is interesting -

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/sep/04/reading-england-wales-scotland-pupils

It says that in numeracy Welsh children are on a par with those in England but ahead of the Scottish and that in reasoning (I don't know how that is measured) Welsh children were 'significantly ahead' of their English and Scottish counterparts. As far as I am aware Welsh children (according to the BBC article) were about one month behind English children in literacy. What does that tell us about education in Wales other than we perform better than other parts of the country in some areas and worse in others?

As SP points out above it isn't explained if literacy is measured in English only or gives weight to the fact that most pupils in Welsh medium schools don't start to learn to read and write in English until way later than those in English medium schools?