Good to see the "chatter" on this issue increasing, and involving those inside as well as outside Government. I hope it translates into action, substantial and soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17396364

this really is good news - lets hope it goes ahead as it could kick start some sort of economic regeneration. It would be even better if the contracting work was given to Welsh firms so the money invested actually stayed in Wales too.

This should be the focus of the next round of EU money in whatever way it can be, everything in the valleys to get an electric light rail system on current and as many old lines we can bring back into use cheaply ./ such as reopening the pretty much intact swansea to aberdare line.

Article in today's echo about train trams for the Cardiff and valleys metro area. Welsh government has said electrification to Swansea is more important. I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro.

It is indicative of the way policy seems to be defined in Wales. Shame really

I haven't seen the Echo article but technicaly it's not really possible to electrify the valley lines unless the main line is electrified as far as Bridgend.

Since having to use hybrid trains for Swansea-London services due to a non-electrified Bridgend-Swansea section would be ludicrous, electrification to Swnsea is more or less a prerequiste for electrification of the valley lines and any tram/light rail projects.

It's about developing a proper Metro network rather than doing 'one-offs' like the disasterous Edinburgh tram project.

Ash

Mark (IIRC) posted a paper on here a while back (or linked to the IFAs website)...it was a good paper and it discussed electrification of the valley lines. it itemised the cost as well.

Thanks, I'll dig it out.

Just thought I'd post the link to the echo article you've been referring to:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/21/wales-accused-of-snubbing-cost-effective-german-tram-trains-plan-for-valley-lines-91466-30581366/#sitelife-commentsWidget-bottom

In my opinion, electrification of the valley lines is extremely important

Here here!

I just hope we get some proper joined up thinking on this one. It seems odd that they have not created a huge Park and Ride at Taffs Well or even made a new stop with parking opposite Pughs Garden Centre in Morganstown. As a regular car and bus user on the A470 I would imagine at peak times it is well over capacity.

can't find the article, it may be on the forum somewhere, but welsh gov getting lots of praise for its contract managment of late in the way it ensures local benefits for contractors etc. the distributor road in port talbot the example given.

I noticed that too and it is a policy that it to be commended. IIRC It's not giving work directly to Welsh contractors per se, but making sure that local (welsh) contractors form part of the overall pool. still, its a good policy and helps keep the funds in Wales.

I wonder how long before someone somewhere claims protectionism, which is against EU law

Hopefully never. The Catalans refuse to use anybody other than Catalans and those working in Barcelona to build the Sagrada Família. That should surely be against E.U law also?

i think the crux of it wasx that the winning contractot has to meet local social targets such as training and development and job creation etc so while it doesn't specify local contractors they are the obvious winners to tackle these local clauses etc.

probably. I mentioned it because it may be a good policy for Wales, but you always get someone somewhere failing to see economies like Wales need a little bit of state protectionism. lets hope its never gets noticed.

Totally agree Jantra. Anything that retains the wealth in Wales is better for our economy at the end of the day. Give me a Penderyn on the rocks over anything from Scotland any day

The Scottish parliament has given the go ahead for the electrification of the line between Glasgow and Edinbourgh.
If anything should be devolved to Cardiff Bay from Westminster it should be infrastructure and Transport.
We are not getting our slice of the cake in Wales, we are not even getting crumbs.
Disgraceful!!!!!!!!!!!

There are over 3,000 miles of Electrified Railway lines in Great Britain, not a single mile of it is in Wales.
Transport must be devolved.

what, if anything, has WG done since 1997 that would suggest they would invest heavily in Welsh infrastructure? free prescriptions do not count.

Wales has a chance to electrify the Valleys yet if Westminster do not commit 99.999% of the funding WG will pass the buck and it won't happen. We have seen it already with WGs supposed investment in CWL. it is being pulled because CWL wanted Abertis to invest 80%.

Hang on a minute, somehow it is absurd to think that the owners and operators of a particular piece of infrastructure should pay for the necessary improvements required to bring it up to standard. So, instead of the private sector owners of the airport having to take responsibility for it, public money should be used to subsidise the lack of private sector investment. Hmmmmm, and this is a failure on the part of WG how? Why should the tax payer be expected to stump up the money that the owners don't want to spend? Yet another private sector success story.

So Ok, over 40% of British Rail is electrified, this is not including the Tube in London, The Metro in Newcastle, The trams in Manchester or Nottingham or the Mersey Rail, etc
40% of the UK yet 0% of the Welsh Rail owned bt Network Rail is elecrified.
Transport is devolved in Scotland, look at the electricfication projects been given the go ahead there.
Westminster is leaving us behind on all forms of transport.
There are over 50 Motorway's in UK, only one stretch of M Road in Wales - from Chepstow to Pont Abraham - a substanstial part of this is only two lane.
Wake up Wales, we are being kippered.
Oh for a strong capital that stood its ground.
When is it going to happen

firstly a nit pick as i know you enjoy them and your putting it quite regular on boards now, but the Welsh Government or its previous incantations, only came into being since 99, 97 was of course the vote.

by the by on infrastructure investment and specifically rail they have reopened the ebbw line to passenger traffic and of course the vale of glamorgan line - first new / reopened line in the uk for decades i believe? in rail still various other areas of Wales have had millions spent on them such as the cambrian line and north wales mainline. only last week significant investment was announced in north east wales. also rolling stock, WG has been paying millions over the contract price to meet the increasing demand on lines that westminister underestimated so badly. each carriage, even the crappy ones are near a million a year.
They have been poor i know, but hidden beneath it all are some good stories. again depends on your view and argument.

you've missed the point. WG have recently said they'd be prepared to invest in CWL to the tune of £5m if Abertis would invest something like £25m. It looks like WG will now withdraw the offer.

I won't hold my breath tha WG will stump up the lions share of funding for the much need VL electrification. I doubt Westminster will not either.

and here we are and here we are and here we go
all aboard and we're hitting the road
here we go
rocking all over the world

the good stories are few and far between. we only need to look how other areas have progressed since devolution and then it hits home just how poor WG have been.

free prescriptions though, it gives us a quality of life that makes us the envy of England

Jantra, given that WG only recently received primary lawmaking powes (which the lamentable labour party have barely used), and that it has had virtually zero fiscal room-for-manouevre and no monetary or tax-raising powers since its creation, what is it you think it could have done over the past 13 years? What, specifically, could the Welsh Government have done to create more prosperity in our lil ol country?

to be honest Mr A there is a lot that could have been done. The decision not to use EU funds for infrastructure when we had the chnace was a big mistake.
The handling of all the various mergers was a big mistake. The loss of the WDA brand was appaling. All that has gone on since then has been shambolic.
Grabbing the renewable sector by the thrat ten years ago rather than letting it fly by until now.
Various infrastructure projects have come and gone and no progres made, M4 relife raod for one, the heads of the valleys is being duelled at the slowest pace ever.
and thats just off the top of the head.
I'll back them for whats been done well as you'll see across the board, but egnerally it has been 12 years of poor performance.

Eric, I agree with you about Objective1 funding going to community projects rather than infrastructure being a mistake. But then again, who knows what levels community cohesion could have fallen to if these funds had been spent on infrastructure? And yes the WDA was a successful well-known brand, but then again, inward investment has been falling since the 3rd world economies have industrialised and 2nd world states acceded to the EU. I asked what could have been done? The WG has had very little power and very few levers. Add in the labour party being deadlocked between the parliamentary branch who are desperate to hold on to their power-base and the assembly lot who have to appeal to the devolution mindset and in whose interests it is to keep the welsh electorate poor and politically illiterate. What could have been done beyond the EU money being better spent? WG is promoting/ seeding the bio/life science sector, but as for renewables have only been able to approve up to 50mw. Really, criticism of the WG needs to be directed towards the politcal aims of the fragmented labour party, rather than the failure of civil servants or other workers. The tories are just as fragmented between Wales and england, tge libdems are hopeless and Plaid too broad a church. We need more autonomy and a massive broom

start by reversing (if possible) the ridiculous tory local government act 1996 whereby Wales had 22 LA's. We have 8 health authorities and 3 (or it is 4) police forces. undertake some serious consolidation of the public sector where we can. lets be leaders in delivering public services effectively.

WG could have adopted a pro business stance a lot sooner. they could have given the populist policies a swerve and realised at the outset Wales is east/west economically and will never be north/south. They should have had Cardiff compete directly with Bristol and the Wales/South West principle regional city - forget Cardiff as capital of Wales as it really only means something to us in Wales.

infrastructure should have been overhauled without reference to westminster. yes free prescriptions would have had to go and possibly university places but what's the point of having a healthy educated populace if they have no work.

objective 1 has been mentioned so I won't mention it again.

I don't buy you needed tax raising powers etc etc (including legislatory powers) because other regions of England have managed to develop their economies perfectly well without being able to change law, policy or raise tax. So thats no excuse.

sadly for us in Wales I think the early years the AMs were more interested in pretending to be big hitters than actually creating a civil service infrastructure that deliver what was needed. to many chiefs and not enough indians.

WG tried developing business, lets cite some examples:

Entrepreneur action - oh dear, flag ship Cardiff based agent of WG ends up insolvent

WG - only allows business to tender for WG contracts as long as contract is not over 25% of turnover, not even if they are the best for the job

WG - only allow businesses with three years accounts tender, even if new start is best business for the job

WG - doesn't allow commercial practices to take place when undertaking private sector contract negotiation - result = poor value for money

the list goes on, WG have been dreadful, the civil servants amateur and the whole experiment, if it is to succeed, needs a complete rethink

and I really wish Carwyn (or whoever) would stop going on about Barnett, we get far far more than we put in so we are doing really well out of the block grant as it is. make do with what we have, spend it more wisely, employ people who will spend it like it is there own money as opposed to some junket.

Jantra, you know full well the findings of the Holtham commission, you know that Wales has been skanked on council housing sale receipts, overpayment of rent vs repairs, to the tune of hundreds of millions. We have one motorway, no modern rail network, despite all of the English and Scottish conurbations having upgraded road and rail. The line from liverpool st to norwich, clacton and southend has been electric since the 60s, there is no economic justification for this being the case rather than the gwr. Its going to take decades to develop a corporate and civuc structure in Wales, and a parallel civil society. Look at the overspends in whitehall on the nhs computer system and military killshit.DOzens of billions over the past twenty years wasted. Plus incompetents from lamont to major to brown at no 11 wasting hundreds of billions. Our shitness in Wales really does pale into insignificance compared to the uk government and civil service

I really am not interested in whether England piss their pot up the wall. honestly, it matters not what bit and doesn't really impact my life here in Wales.

lets not measure our own inability with the inability of others.

Me neither, but the problem is that they are pissing more of our pot up against the wall than we are

its not really our pot is it, it is theirs first and foremost. they create the wealth. its only due to their lasting requirement for 'empire' that they keep hold of the union through subsidy.



not that I'm happy with that of course

We are and have been for some considerable time under many different Whitehall Governments being massively short changed in Wales.
For buisness to thrive its crucial that our infrastructure becomes like like the rest of Western Europe.
Road, Rail and Air. All must be devolved to have any hope.

can you explain why you think we have been short-changed by whitehall? I don't think we have. In fact, I reckon we get about £9bn per annum more from taxation than taxes generated in Wales or by Welsh businesses/people

Well said. Why in the hell have we got such crappy transport links? Considering the rail network in situ in south wales has all the necessary routes and room for expansion (if extensive track and signalling upgrades occur across the entire network) it's pretty hard to see why we haven't had valley lines et al electrified, when glasgow, edinburgh, tyne and wear, merseyside, manchester, west yorkshire,birmingham, nottingham, sheffield, and london have all had electrified public mass transport developed in the last 40 years. Places like sheffield, glasgow and manchester have suburban rail networks as well as their tube/tram, plus electrified main lines to london and other cities. To catch up with those cities, south wales would need valley lines plus vog line, ebbw vale line, maesteg line, hereford line to be electrified into a new metro, a new tram system for cardiff, 10 services per hour between swansea and newport EACH WAY via Cardiff, an electrified main line to Paddington and a high speed line via Heathrow to HS1 and HS2.If our economy is placed on a level playing field with the rest of the uk, infrastructure-wise, then maybe we can start to prosper.
Metro £1 billion
Tram £500 million
Gwr electrification £500 million
HS4 £18billion.
So fair's fair, we as part of the UK are owed this by the UK government. Give us OUR £20 billion! You OWE us

jantra - over 3,000 miles of Electrified line owned by Network Rail -not a single mile of Electrifed line in Wales.
Its a disgrace. Its prejudice.
All these decisions made in Whitehall.
They seldom give us anything - wake up

I agree in part, but to say we are not given more than our fair share. if it was electric rail then there would be anm absence of something else.

We Welsh are responsible for our own actions. We prefer central funding (when it was central funding) to be spent on benefits and welfare rather than getting out and creating wealth. We like to blame everyone else except ourselves for the state of our nation.

Firstly, Whitehall and specifically rail - there was only so much money. The investment is going to be on a biggest bang for buck basis. Considering the state of our economy and the comparatively low pay here, payback for investment was always going to take longer. Consider the Welsh are amongst the worst for always complaining about cost and rarely appreciating value, it is no wonder Network Rail (or whatever it is/was called) did not invest as it knew the Welsh would not be able to link the fair increases with improved service. I'd agree with that.

Secondly, do you expect a Tory administration (upto 1997) that has little or no presence in Wales to invest heavily in Wales and specifically the South Wales valleys when a favourite pastime of those people is to castigate the Tories at every opportunity? Do you think funding is going to go to areas that support the Tories or rail against them (excuse the pun) at every given opportunity?

it is quite obvious why Wales is the forgotten man, we are either moaning about the funders, or we don't appreciate that investment requires funding which infers increased cost.

Jantra, we dont "prefer welfare" in Wales. We just haven't had the same level of infrastructure funding in our main urban area (south wales) of two million people that other conurbations have had from the Uk government. The cental lowland belt in Scotland has a population of 3.5 million and has two electrified rail lines to London, plus an underground metro in glasgow, plus the very extensive electrified Glasgow suburban network, and the electrified glasgow to edinburgh line. So that means 5 lines/ networks were electrified in scotland BEFORE devolution for 3.5 million people, yet NOTHING was electrified in Wales since the year dot, even though we have one of the oldest and historically best developed networks in the world. Our trains here are antiques, I had visitors from overseas here recently and they were aghast at our diesel trains. Using Scotland as a benchmark, they had 5 electrified schemes for 3.5 milliion jocks, we should get 3 electrified schemes for 2 million taffs. The economic benefits of electrified railways are well know, that's why every country in Europe has them. Why didn't Whitehall invest in Welsh rail electrification?

I've done a little digging, there are 4 lines between Glasgow and Edinburgh, two of which were electrified before devolution. They are looking to electrify a third line, via Falkirk, by 2016. This just gets harder to understand. If lowland Scotland had all this electrification investment before devolution, why was no-one in either the tory or labour party lobbying for even a teeny bit of leccy rail prior to 2008?

Mr A

The term 'prefer welfare' was tongue in cheek along the lines of us Welsh don't want to see our benefits cut for longer term infrastructure projects.

As I said, The Conservatives were hardly going to pump money into an area that patholigcally despised them were they. Thats about it. The conservatives, just like labour, are going to look after their core areas first and foremost.

If us Welsh were not so vehement about our hatred of Thatcher (who in my opinion did to mining what had to be done) then perhaps we could engage a bit more with Westminster and develop an infrastrucutre pplan. As it stands, some Welsh abhor the idea of the Conservatives for no other reason than they modernised the Uk 30 years ago and some areas have not really managed to recover, despite 15 year sof neglect from their beloved Labour party.

the attitude of the electorate eh!

when for example we start showing some maturity with our political appraisal and critique parties of all colours, then perhaps we'll reach the level of maturity that can enter debate on a meaningful basis. Do you think it is good or bad for Wales that we have ministers in the Senedd who won't engage with their counterparts in Westminster? I don't. I think if you are a politician or diplomat you have to put personal feelings to one side and work with whoever it takes to get the result.

Wales has always been a backwater in many regards. I am sorry if you think that is insulting but when you travel around just the UK you see attitudes are that much different. Compare to how Aelc Salmod has Cameron trottting up to edinburgh every five minutes whereas Carwyn Jones doesn't even register on Cameron's radar.

If you want to understand why we do so poorly in Wales it is because our politicians are looking for cheap populism and soundbite rather than politics with teeth. Of course, as an electorate we get everything we deserve: if we keep voting monkeys we'll get chumbawumba from our typewriters.

We haven't had the political class to carry out what is needed. My view:scrap the Senedd and have the 50 or so MPs in Westminter decide on devolved matters. That would mean the 50 or so MPs plus the 60 AMs would leave a political pool of 110 to choose the 50 MPs to represent Wales at a UK level and also decide Welsh only matters.

it would also help the conduit of information as all our politicians would be based in Westminster working with their fellow UK MPs on various issues. Instead we have politicians in Wales who simply don't engage on a UK level. its not rocket science.

All the London based parties have let us down.
The rail situation here is chronic.
Electric rail, is cleaner, cheaper, faster.
It would take 20 mins off the Port Talbot to London journey.
We have no metropolitan lines in Wales,Cardiff East does not have a single station.

The Motorways are not much better, motorways meant to say motorway.
One M road in Wales seriously holds us back and gives buisness here an unfair disadvantage - take CWL Airport main competitor is BRS, Cardiff Airport has one M road close to it the M4,
BRS has 4 M roads, the M4, M5, M32, M49 within a ten mile radius. The people at BRS are obviously using this when they are trying to attract new airlines, the same situation in Birmingham, London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinbourgh.
Cardiff needs to grow some balls.

then vote labour at the next election for more of the same

as I keep saying, we get what we deserve. We know Labour deliver less than mediocre, we know they are most definitely not capable, yet because they protect our benefits and welfare, we won't vote them out of office.

we need a pro business, pro development party in power, not a party that wants to protect Wales from the growth policies being implemented by Westminster.

you reap what you sow

Replying to Jantra's last but one post -

That doesn't make sense. If the reason for no electrification prior to devolution was because we hate the Tories how come the Jocko's got electrification when clearly (1 Scottish Tory MP out of how many) they hate the Tories more than us? That of course is leaving aside the notion that if you govern a country you govern the whole country and not just the bit that likes you. You seem to be tacitly agreeing that the south east of England has received the lions share of investment because it generally votes Tory to the detriment of the rest of the country.

Also the reason Salmond wields more power is because he's effectively leading a charge to dismantle the UK. Carwyn Jones isn't. What you seem to be advocating is a greater vote for Plaid to get the political landscape in Wales on the Westminster radar, bullying then into trying to placate us with buy offs. Clearly the strategy of going away from the UK poiltical stage rather than becoming more integrated is - according to you - working in Scotland and yet you suggest that we do the polar opposite.

We also get 50 MP's in your scheme even though we are clearly being reduced to 30 MP's (and the number of MP's throughout the UK is being reduced as a whole). That leaves us a a tiny fish is a very big pond with less political clout than we wielded before devolution. And given what was achieved by successive Tory govt's (who wouldn't invest in Wales because we don't vote for them or so you say) or Labour govts (who are financially incompetent and intent on keeping the Welsh population as welfare junkies or so you say) how exactly would this improve matters?

Your thinking is wooly on this one. You need to sort this out before you launch your centre right pro-capitalism party......

Transport in Scotland is devolved.
Labour are just as ineffective as the Tories in Wales.

I'd say Glasgow and Edinburgh being a much larger urban area is probably more to do with it than anything else. lets face it, Cardiff and the Valleys are not the economic powerhouse we would like to belive


I would agree that the Conservatives favour their own areas in the way Labour favour their own areas. There is nothing new in this statement. The issue is that because the Conservatives are pro business, the areas that support them tend to do very well at business. Because Labour prefer a bigger public sector over business development, Labour areas tend to thrive in public service jobs when Labour are in power. as we know private sector jobs can be self sustaining whereas public sector jobs cannot. it is a viscious circle which we would need to break.


fair point


not at all, i'm a unionist and will remain a unionist. What I said was we need politicians who engage with the real powers that be in Westminster and not act in the juvenile parish council politics way we have come to expect.



Scotland will not leave the UK, there is no real appetite for it. it is bluster and once the referendum is out of the way Scotland will get less air time at Westminster


30 or 50 is not the point - the point was that from currently 110 or whatever politicians we could choose the best 30 or 50 to represent us at Westminster (thus raising the bar) and those very same people could also decide on devolved matters, reducing cost and making the process much more efficient.


good, that would be equitable. I find it abhorrent that my MP has more political clout per capita than any MP from England or Scotland. We should want an egalitarian society and that includes equal representation in Parliament


perhaps engaging with the Conservatives? perhaps realising that the Conservatives are pro business - something we despareately need in Wales. look at the Conservative areas - they do pretty well for themselves. i can't see why we can't have that here in Wales.

do you really think Labour are not financially incontinent? I do. As an example - I think WTC was a good policy but why not just amend the PAYE tax coding notice. Why employ 1,500 people at a total annual cost of £300m per annum in longbenton, Newcastle to administer the working Tax Credit scheme when it could have been implemented much more cheaply using the PAYE coding notice system. As always with Labour, some decent ideas but absolutely no idea on how to implement them in a cost effective manner. the total cost of administration has been more than £3bn yet this could and should have been implemented for a fraction of the cost.


i'd never launch a party in wales, i'm coming to the conclusion that we are a lost cause - a complete basket case. i am giving due consideration to moving away from here. sad as it seems, the Welsh mentality for wanting to better oneself relies on blaming the English for all our ills rather than looking at what we can do for ourself. Its the self pity and refusal to see that we as a nation are the problem and our own worst enemy.

I want my children to have a bright future yet I am coming to the conclusion that in wales this future will be less bright than in England. nationalism means little, my childrens future means everything.

transpsport is devolved in Wales too! remember the nationalist nincompoop IWJ and his portfolio for the economy and transport. the bumbling fool.


and yet will still get elected to power no matter what because some are so vehemently opposed to the modernisation of the UK undertaken by Thatcher 30 years ago. If we can't get our head around that and move forward then we deserve to be left behind

Jantra - so what you are saying is that unless Wales votes Conservative in the next election you will be leaving the country? You are the Phil Collins of the forum........

If ever there was an incentive to vote Labour.....













I'm yanking your chain by the way.....

Wales has two motorways M48 and M4 (three if you count the A48(M), running through the most heavily populated part of Wales. There could have been another but but WAG said NO!

There is just no economic case/need for motorways other than in S. Wales. If Plymouth, an English city of 250,000, isn't served by a motorway how can the rest of Wales justify a motorway? In fact the A38 that links Plymouth to the M5 is far worse than the A55 running along the N. Wales coast.

Once you start looking at other less heavily populated parts of the UK you can see the Wales is about par for the course. Take Devon and Cornwall (population >1.5million like S. Wales) will they get rail electricfication or more motorway? Will Norfolk and Suffolk (population >1.5m) even get a motorway?

Sorry but the other Welsh national anthem of "It's not fair ________ gets everything" gets rather boring after a while.

not really that Karl. I grow tired of people blaming a political party for something that happened 30 years ago. The party is different today than it was then, it has gone back to its roots and is much more centrist. prior to 1979 the Conservatives were fairly centrist (asyou'd expect from a party with the word Conservative as its name). Only under Thatcher did they swing to the right. In my view some of their policies are rather centrist yet some people in Wales have such a patholigical hatred and refuse to look at the manifesto. thats their choice of course and they are perfectly entitled to make that choice. but in my view it holds Wales back.

FWIW i have voted five times in my life:

2 x Labour
2 x Plaid
1 X LibDem

this reference to me being a tory boy is nonsense. It shows the polarisation of politics in Wales and the UK in general. Because I am right wing economically it seems to some that i cannot possibly be left wing on other issues. This of course it total nonsense and only a weak mind would consider that a person can only be left wing or right wing and not a mixture of both.

I pick what party is best for me at the election. I look at all of the manifestos on offer. i have no loyalty to any party and cannot understand how some people can support a political party like their football team. its madness.

The welsh part of network rail has only been devolved for a few months, Jantra. Previously we were part of England as far as rail infrastructure goes; we didn't get so much a slice of the pie as a few crumbs off the table. Following the McNulty report that will change. However to suggest that the 3.5 million lowland scots deserved 6 electrified railways pre-devo and the 2 million welsh deserved none because we are an "economic backwater" is laughable. Chickens....eggs, Jantra?

Mr A

happy to be corrected, but I thought the SRA was broken up in 2006 with part of Welsh infrastructure passed over to WG (hence the reopening on the Ebbw Vale line).

as i said, its more to do with Edinburgh / Glasgow being a major economic powerhouse that they have the infrastructure that they do. glasgow is a city of 1m people, edinburgh half that. then you have the surrounding towns, its at least twice the size of South wales.

As Terrry Pratchet's finest alluded to, lets compare with say East Anglia or Plymouth and not cities that are way above us economically.

We have a grandiose self importance due to our capital city status, when the reality is we are just a nottingham or Bradford.

time will tell if WG are prepared to make tough choices for the long term interst of wales. we'll see if they commit to investing in the valleys whether Westminster does or not. of course they could, they could take the £174m per annum that they give ATW each year and invest that directly. Pax fares would rise as a result but we'd end up with a longer term solution that we all want.

Can't see it happening though - do you really think the Welsh politicians will target long term strategic policy that could see them lose their income as opposed to safe short term populist policies that win votes? i'd prefer several years of famine for lnger term feast - would you?

Jantra, for the ymptinth time, south wales has 2 million people and scotland's central belt 3.5 million. The lines to norwich, ipswich, clacton and southend were electrified 40 years ago. You can argue til you are tory blue in the face but we been skanked big time bra