The Millenium Stadium,
The Millenium Centre,

Funded by the National Lottery that was established by Westminster. Stadium was announced during the Conservative government of John Major.


St David's Hotel,
St David's Shopping Centre,
Alto Lusso
Riga rossa,
Century Wharf,
Sleeperz, The Cafe Quarter,
Cardiff City Stadium

Built by private enterprise, during a massive property boom (perhaps helped by government policy at Westminster).


3 Grand Slam's

What?


Five FA Cup Finals

Thanks to the National Lottery funded stadium...

Another report on fracking on WalesOnline.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/04/04/revealed-the-government-fracking-plans-that-will-hit-half-of-wales-91466-30686629/

Even if just a small fraction of the projected £70 billion was actually realised, this would pay for a fair few of our hit list of infrastructure projects and tax relief for business.

Surely this should be given serious consideration and not just discarded because of environmental concerns. Obviously we need assurances regarding safety and environmental impact, but I really think Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, RSPB etc etc blow everything out of proportion. I think if it were up to them we'd all still live in caves and there would have been a ban on the invention of the wheel and fire.

Seem to remember John Major's government controversialy pulling the plug on the opera house.
Think you will find that the Assembly more than patched the Lottery for the funding of the Millenium Centre.
Over 40% of network's Rail's infrastructure in Great britain is electrified.
0% of Network Rail's infrastructure is electrified in Wales.
HELLO! HELLO! SUT MAE? HOLA! BONJOUR! YASSOU!
Smell the coffee, taste the kippers, take of the blinkers, we are being stiched

As for the Millenium Stadium the lottery awarded a higher grant to the At Bristol project than it did to the Millenium Stadium.
Shall I list all the other English projects that have had higher funding. it will not be hard.
This is about rail and the lack of investment in Wales from Westminster.
Scandalous

The NHS is not the worlds fifth biggest employer.

Will answer fully later

I wouldn't bother Jantra, I'll take the researched article by the BBC rather than your opinion thanks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786

Regardless, you have focused on an aside, my real point was does the NHS inflate our public sector employment figures when these are private services in other countries.

Millennium Stadium, Millennium Commission contribution £46 million

WMC, Millennium Commission contribution £31.7 million

@Bristol, Millennium Commission contribution £44.3 million

Cardiff LUZ* population 860,000

Bristol LUZ* population 1,000,000

*Large Urban Zones, as defined by the Eurostat service of the European Commission.

I think the Capitalised bit is just one of the concerns

Eric

i'm not so sure....as much as I'd love this sort of windfall to come to Wales, I was speaking to an industry expert who has said that fracking is not safe at all.

I'd say more research needs to be done to show it can be extracted safely. At no point should we compromise future generations quality of life so we can have a decent infrastructure.



Ci Snoop
Wales is 5% of the UK. Rail electrificiation will be undertaken on a 'biggest bang for buck' basis. That is - what will deliver payback in the shortest time. It follows the busiest most profitable routes were/will be electrified first. It goes back to what some in Wales/Cardiff perceive - the reality is that Cardiff really is a provincial city like Bournemouth - who are probably not on the electric network either.

Since Wales gets more benefits than every other part of the UK but pays less in tax receipts, surely the rest of the UK should 'wake up and smell the coffee, eat the kippers etc etc' and emand our benefits are reduced conmmensurate with what we put in.

also, Wales has a block grant. It is up to us how we spend it. We elect AMs to spend our money. We elect Welsh Labour. It is a proven fact that they prefer populist policies, waste, unproductive behaviour, ineffeciency and ineffective public sector. you get what you vote for.

If you want WG to spend the block grant on infrastructure, then you need to vote out the existing government and replace them with a more busiens friendly set of nincompoops.

as long as we have Welsh Labour then our block grant will be spent on largesse and pandering to the electorate rather than spending on long term infrastructure development.

mt bad, I read that article a while back and was leading on to the fact that the NHS is si fifth largest employer... for some reason I read your comment as the NHS being the worlds third largest employer. apologies.

[/quote=George]
Regardless, you have focused on an aside, my real point was does the NHS inflate our public sector employment figures when these are private services in other countries.[/quote]
you misunderstand what i meant by referring that I will comment later on...I meant in reference to Germany and not whether the NHS was first second or tenth biggest - as you say that was a side point.

Germany's healthcare delivery is undertaken by the private sector. however, it is funded (IIRC) 77% by the state and 23% by private insurance. it is free at the point of use, is single tier (unlike the UK which is two tier), has no waiting times, has more doctors and nurses per capita than the UK, each patient has their own room in hospital and so on.

The cost to the German taxpayer is also less per capita.

however, the real point is that the doctors, nurses and all that work in the German healtcare system are not classed as public sector workers. Even so, if they were the ratio of 1 to 8 becomes nearer 1 to 7, so we still have a long way to go to match the German level of productivity.

Jantra,

Infrastructure is not a devolved matter. As we are 5% of the U.K population, then we should expect 5% of the money available for infrastructure upgrades. This has not happened and we only have 1 motorway and no modern railway.

By calling things such as the Olympics, cross rail and HS2 a U.K rather than an England project, the Westminster Government has knowingly swindled the other Nations out of a Barnet rebate

That's bollocks

How so? Infrastructure is not a devolved issue hence why we have to petition the British Government for the funding. Give examples of modern infrastructure projects in Wales? After the M4 there's nothing, and that's clutching at straws to call the m4 modern

SP

Your responses epitomise everything I dislike about welsh politics. The re opening of the ebbw vale / cwl line, the widening of the m4 and so on are all seen as wg triumphs of devolution. Lack of attention elsewhere always reverts back to indifference by Westminster. To be welsh labour is a job from the gods. Success it's down to you and failure it's down to someone else.

How can you seriously blame a Government that has only had law making powers for not even a year for what has happened to Wales?

You cannot seriously negate Westminster's responsibility towards the Welsh people?

Your responses epitomise everything I dislike about welsh politics. The re opening of the ebbw vale / cwl line, the widening of the m4 and so on are all seen as wg triumphs of devolution. Lack of attention elsewhere always reverts back to indifference by Westminster. To be welsh labour is a job from the gods. Success it's down to you and failure it's down to someone else.[/quote]

I'm not welsh labour or uk copnservative, i'm indifferent, but who do you give credit to for anything. The ebbw line and the vog line are a success, an unmitigated success and driven and funded by the welsh government. Lets ridicule everything else fine, but why can't you say yep, those two projects have done ok?

we have had WG (in its various forms) for 13 years. in that time we have seen cyprus, czech republic, estonian, hungary, latvia, lithuania, malta, poland, slovakia, slovenia, bulgaria and romania.

I wonder how there economic performance has been in that time? Certainly the former eastern bloc nations who had less of a base to begin with?

I have never said I negate Westminster, but time and again I ask when does the economic malaise stop being the fault of Westminster and start being the fault of the Senedd?

Can you explain how parties of all colours have failed Wales yet the dimwitted valley folk adore labour and hate the Conservatives? Labour did more economic damage to the Valleys than Thatcher ever did yet they still manage to hold on to their seats - why is this?

I'm not welsh labour or uk copnservative, i'm indifferent, but who do you give credit to for anything. The ebbw line and the vog line are a success, an unmitigated success and driven and funded by the welsh government. Lets ridicule everything else fine, but why can't you say yep, those two projects have done ok?[/quote]

yep, those two projects have done ok. therefore Wales is now a great place even though we still don't have a direct rail link between our capital and its airport, we still don't have a ring road around our capital, and that we have an airport that is on a par with Blackpools.

These are all Sovereign Nations who have complete control over everything that effects their Country, bar what the E.U dictates to them. There is no way we can compare Wales with Hungary or Bulgaria as examples. They are not attached any more to Mother Russia and have to cut their own cloth rather than have it given to them to cut.

You should be looking to compare how Wales has done in comparison with other semi-autonomous regions in Europe such as Sicily, Bavaria, Wallonia and all of the Spanish semi-autonomous regions such as Andalucia, Valencia, Murcia, Extremadura, Galica, The Basque Country, Madrid, Castilla y Leon, Cataluna and Madrid. These regions have some responsibility in the same areas as Wales such as Education, transport etc. so that would give us a fairer comparison than actual Sovereign U.N recognised Countries.

I cannot argue over why people in the Valleys hate the Conservatives as I do not come from there and cannot say that I fully understand the economic situation. I did recently read that Merthyr does have the same employment rate as Cardiff hovering somewhere around the 69% mark. If anything I'd say that the people feel that Labour is the only party that can help them, or more likely that Old Labour, the one that is long dead from the heyday of Bevan and Attle who tried to look after our poor in a time when we were much poorer than we are today. The Torries, by contrast, are seen by many people as self-serving and only helping the rich. Maybe it is due to bad publicity, but I am yet to see any evidence of good Conservative policies from the modern era. After Thatcher came the 90s recession, and our economy today is stagnant on the verge of going backwards once more.

Things may yet change with a non-welsh speaking Valleys Girl now leading Plaid Cymru. Don't forget they have won two valleys Assembly constituency seats before. The ConDem Government now has the same approval ratings as the last days of the New Labour era, so a Labour resurgence is inevitable. Lianne has some seriously left-wing views which could be a serious problem for Labour in the Valleys, but they have to fight the same problem that every other party must in the Valleys which is the ideological longevity of the long dead Old Labour brand, which now has, more or less, no relation with New Labours views at all.

You guys are world beaters.
Mustrum what is with the random population figures.
What we want is 5% of the UK population -5% of the transport budget.
That is fair.
the at centre in Bristol was awarded 47 and two thirds of a million for a 104 million project.
The Millenium Stadium was awarded 46 million for a 141 million project.
At Bristol was awarded another two million for the Ec site.
The Millenium Centre was awarded 31 million for a 108 million project.
Why you distort these figures is strange?
just look on ther Millenoum Commision website.
WMC gets 31 million for a 108 million project
Bristol gets 47 million for a project which cost less.
Still this is about Rail but it look like we get less elsewhere

CiSnoop - be careful with what you are writing about the Millennium Commission contributions. They contributed to TWO massive projects in Cardiff, the sum of which dwarfs what Bristol got.

In the end, Cardiff did EXCEPTIONALLY well out of the Millennium Commission. TWO landmark buildings. That legacy punches head and shoulders above what Bristol (and other cities) were awarded.

On the politics front, I had to raise my eyebrows somewhat earlier today when cycling down Lloyd George Avenue.

In this age of relative apathy towards politics, I noticed that there are TEN election hoarding signs (the kind that are similar to the 'for sale' signs that you see estate agents placing in peoples front gardens) for the forthcoming Butetown council elections.

Each and every one (without a single exception) is a bright red and yellow Labour/LLafur sign, and each and every one is staked in the front garden outside each of the social housing plots on Lloyd George Avenue (the 2 short rows of terraces which flank either side of the Granary building in the middle).

Statistically speaking, it would be astonishing if every resident in two complete rows of housing were ALL ardent Labour supporters to the extent that they were keen to have election signs hammered into their front gardens.

Interesting....

If I remember correctly Labour had a placard placing scandal along with Plaid last year? Can one actually trust the placards that are being put in people's gardens these days?

Are you ok with us only receiving say 5% of the welfare budget as opposed to what we get now?

Are you ok with us receiving only 5% of the UK block grant as opposed to what we get now?

Shall we keep the amounts we currently have in those areas which our shares happens to be higher than 5% but in an area where we get less than 5% there must be equalisation? thats what is sounds like...penny and bun spring to mind.

Wales does very well out of Westminster. however, as we are a very unproductive part of the UK then it is no wonder the money we have is spent on benefits and welfare instead of roads, rail and infrastructure.

I would prefer the money we have to be spent on roads rail and infrastructure. As long as Wales is socialist then this will never happen and we'll carry on getting free prescriptions.

Socialism does not develop an economy, it strangles it. However, the Welsh are far too protective of their precious benefits to realise that you cannot build up an economy (so the majority prosper) without first breaking some eggs.

keep voting labour and you'll see Wales fall further behind. I don't want that but we'll see that the Welsh do at the next elections. The Welsh are their own worst enemy.

Still no one has answered this question - I am beginning to think the left have absolutely no courage in their convictions....

When does Wales' economic malaise start being the responsibility of the Senedd and stop being the responsibility of Westminster?

Having law making powers has nothing to do with it, the English regions (without law making powers) managed to improve ecomomic performance between 1997-2009 so Wales could have made an improvement without law making powers, we just made a collective choice not to. We preferred to go backwards and we will continue to go backwards as long as I have a hole in my arse or until Labour are removed from office.

wiki article on Welsh economy

I appreciate it is a wiki article, so you don't have to read it. however the figures it quotes have been cited from credible sources. It makes quite depressing reading. Howe anyone can suggest devolution or Welsh Labour have been good for Wales is beyond me. We have been falling steadily in terms of GVA and GDP since devoltion, whereas the English regions, with the exact same powers or less that NAW/WAg then WG have all faired better.

What is undeniable for the Nats is that the Welsh economy contributes £20bn or so to HMT but takes back £29bn or so. We rely on the English to subsidise us a further 50% of what we produce. Unbelievable.

Yet some are happy to criticise Westminster at every opportunity.

lets keep the red flag flying as we march to oblivion...

as Billy Bragg once said

we're making the world safe for capitalism...

Whats interesting about that wiki article is that the period 1989 - 1999 (pre devolution) saw the GDP figures drop 6 points compared to the UK average, whereas after devolution it has only dropped 3 points as compared to the UK average. One may deduce from those figures, if one wanted to put a spin on it, that if devolution has not taken place then we would have been a lot worse off.

What do they say about lies, damned lies and statistics etc etc

It takes many years for economic policies to take affect Karl. You could therefore argue quite comfortably the 3 points dropped post 1999 were probably a result of policies implemented pre 1999 by Labour and the Conservatives before them. The resultant impact of say Rhodri Morgans tenure is only really now being felt. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. Thus far the cuts have not had anywhere near the impact in Wales as England, but I reckon coming 2013 onwards they will really start to bite and then we'll see Welsh performance fall much further behind. Welsh Labour have nothing to fear though, they can just blame Westminster.

I predict in 10 years time Wales will be sub 60 points compared to the UK and EU and Welsh Labour will have around 58 of the 60 AMs. we'll still have no roads, rail or infrastrucutre but we'll still have free prescriptions and thus be the envy of England (the England with a modern infrastructure, powerful economy, jobs, healtcare, education and hope)

1989 = 85% of UK average
1997 = 80% (a drop of 5% in Uk average or 5.9% in real terms)
2008 = 74% (a drop of 6% in UK average or 7.5% in real terms)

1989 - 1997 = Conservative government with one major recession
1997 - 2008 = Labour government during a period os sustained economic growth

yet some think Labour do better for Wales. I would really like to understand the thought processes of those who think Labour do better for Wales than the Conservatives. All economic data points to the fact that we fall behind the rest of the UK at a greater rate when Labour are in power.

I suppose its to do with 'man of the people' Tony Blair and his £4m per annum salary leading Labour and not Thatcher.

PAVLOVS DOGS

Erm didn't you just say that economic policies take years before their effect is known. So couldn't you argue that the drop of 5% between 89 and 97 was down to the Tory government in the late 70's/early 80's and the drop of 6% between 1997 and 2008 was down to the government in the late 80s/early 90's which was, I think, Tory until 97?

Just saying, like. You can dress up stats howsoever they please you most. The real issue is that since 1989 Wales has progressively lost ground when compared to the UK average. Politics has a part to play but I think there are more important things to consider - the switch to a service based economy industry from a predominantly manufacturing economy? The huge growth of London and the south east which distorts the figures for all regions? The lack of decent sized urban area's in Wales which mitigates against agglomeration etc etc?

I'm not making excuses but the colour of the government in Westminster/Cardiff Bay or both is only one factor of many when considering Wales' economic performance. I don't know what the figures are before 1989 but I wouldn't be surprised to see Wales' economic performance steadily going downhill from the second world war onwards regardless of who is in No10.

Karl

I did say that and I stick by it. My second post was quite tongue in cheek - along the lines of if we ignore the reality that policies take years to have any real impact, it still shows Labour to be the party that accelerates Wales decline.

I agree with you, Wales has been left behind the rest of the UK no matter what colour of party is in power. With that in mind, can you explain why one party is hated to much more and another has to do no work to get elected? I would say it is a case of the majority of the Welsh not being very well versed in political analysis and as such we'll continually reap what we sow. We'll get the legislature we deserve and we'll continually slide backwards - do you not agree?

Jantra, we have not been left behind the rest of the UK. North-East England has performed similarly over the past 50 years as the decline of the coal and steel industries has hit its economy. I linked to this document:
http://www.oxfordeconomics.com/Free/pdfs/regcont.pdf
a few months back and it shows that Wales and NE England receive very similar levels of funding and contribute roughly similar amounts to HMRC. These levels of funding and contributions are for obvious structural reasons as these two areas are geographically peripheral within the UK and have relatively undiversified economies. The crappy economic performances are due to the changing world economy and to a lesser extent, Westminster. WG are really hardly to blame for this, any undergraduate social scientist could tell you that.
Here is a more recent version of the above doc:
http://www.isitfair.co.uk/Reports/Public/OE%20UKPublicFinance.pdf
This thread is about leccy rail and the fact remains that the North-East has had the investment of GNER being electrified PLUS the Tyne/Wear Metro (which has been upgraded and extended recently) although their population is half a million less than Wales. We have been SKANKED by westminster in the past when it comes to modernised rail, we need to play catch-up and that should be funded by the UK, considering that the UK is funding HS2 and has funded just about every rail project in England.

Here is a treat:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-250308
Download the file for NUTS1 regional gva and you can see that in 1997 Wales was just behind NE Eng in terms of gva per capita, by 2010 we had fallen a little bit further behind, I would argue that is to some extent because we have no electrified rail line to London,or modern Metro system, which certainly affects productivity and inward investment. QED

Looking at the table and doing some maths, Wales gva per head was 75.4% of England's in 1997 and was 72.2% in 2010. If you strip out London, SE England, SW England and the E of England, Wales GVA per head has increased by roughly the same proportion as the remaining half of England!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So maybe we aint the dunderheads that some people suggest we are?! We have out-performed the West Midlands! Jasper Carrott, Noddy Holder, Nigel Kennedy, Benny from Crossroads - your boys took one hell of a beating!

I'd hope that in years to come political analysis will become less and less important. There are bigger things to concentrate on than party politics. It seems to me that people are becoming less engaged with politics in the traditional sense but more engaged in relation to single issues. It also seems to me that government's role in influencing the way the country develops be that in economics or shared values will diminish over time.

I imagine that in a few years events in the middle east, the americas and the far east will have greater effect on our prosperity than whether or not government is lowering or raising corporation tax by 1%. Energy security and climate change will mean that Labour and the Tories will have no other option but to sing from the same hymn sheet, just as an example. I think that this will lead to outdated notions of being left wing or right wing with some set of rigid, off the shelf ideals being left behind.

Is it possible to argue that the drop in Wales' share of GDP is because of growth elsewhere? As London and the South East have had astronomical growth whilst, as we have seen in Cardiff, it wasn't so much of a boom here in Wales. Could that explain why we seemed to be going into reverse even in the good times?

See my edited post above, GVA per head figures, which are accepted as a better measure of prosperity than gdp, show that we have grown more in Wales between 1997 and 2010 than at least one other English region, I cant be bothered now to do the maths for the other regions. And we did it without any electrified rail! We are Ace!

Electrification of the valleys lines a done deal according to David Cameron -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17619922

I quote - 'we are also going to be going ahead with the electrification of the valleys line. It's in black and white in the treasury documents. We've got some details to work out with the Welsh assembly government. We've got to determine the exact finance and all of the rest of it but be in no doubt this is something we want to do.'

This sounds very promising.

Great! Next a travel card for train and bus combined and we will begin to have an INTEGRATED, MODERN public transport system.

Mr appeasement

What you are saying is that since we have done as shit as NE england, everything is not as bad as I have suggested.

don't be a burk, we are falling further and further behind. The NE England is part of England and as such do not have a 'them and us' attitude towards the English that we do. What happens if the English decide that rather than subsidise the Welsh to £9bn per annum, they'll divert that to NE england where i) it is needed as much and (ii) they'll be more grateful for it than the moaning minnies over offahs dyke

Being joint last in the shit race is nothing to be proud of. In fact, iut just exacewrbate my point that we in Wales are totally devoid of what is needed. We need a collective good kick up the arse and realise that we are not going to get anywhere by always relying on England.

SP

sounds like more excuses. What you are saying is that it is ok because whilst we were pootling along, everywhere else was having stellar growth which in fairness creates an impression we are going backwards when the reality is the good ship Wales is bumping along, albeit not a quick as everywhere else.

the only issue I have with that is that it is bollocks.

Wales is falling further behind everyone, not just the Uk but the EU too. Are we too assume that Wales were outperformed by Malta, Greece, spain and any other region/country/area within the PIGS? I wouldn't have thought so

now i know you are taking the pish.

growing from 10 to 15 is 50% growth, growing from 90 to 99 is only 10% growth. I know which growth i'd prefer.

stop making excuses, whichever way you look at it, wales has performed poorly and it is only going to get worse when the budget cuts really impact us in Wales.

it sounds nothing of the sort. Lets wait and see the finance arrangement first. i reckon the lions share will fall to WG and as such they'll find some previously unheard of economic analysis that explains why retaining 19th century infrastructure is the new pump priming.

For fucks sake take a day off. Take an hour off. This is good news. If electrification hits the skids at some later date (for whatever reason) then it will be bad news.

What I glean from the quote is that Westminster and WG have been working closely and the business case has been accepted. The detail is now being discussed. That takes us much further forward than we were less than a year ago when it was a pie in the sky item on a civil servants wishlist. Thats good news Jantra,how can it be anything else?

Sometimes it seems as though you want everything to get ballsed up just so you can say you were right.

Karl

We have become used to promises aplenty on this forum...glass neeedle and so forth. the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Whilst it is welcome that we are at least talking about it, given Westminster are funding the GWL extension to Cardiff, do you really think that at the same time they'll stump up the finance for the Valleys electrification? I don't. it is that simple.

May elections are upon us, the Conservatives are looking to make inroads in the Valleys. It is hardly a co-incidence of the timing of this announcement. Can you remember the announcement from WG and CCC before last years elections about investing in Cardiff's CBD - has that happened yet? Have you heard anything about it as I haven't.

If the majority of funding is not forthcoming from Westminster, they I am absolutely convinced it will be mothballed as our WG masters have no stomach for making such long term decisions in our best interests (but to their own detriment).

apologies karl, but that is the way I see it. I'll happily be told I was wrong (and I'm sure many will take pleasure in doing so) if this goes ahead. I just can't see it so i'm not going to get excited about it

NB no, I don't take a day off, thats the proplem with this country, lack of productivity

If this Government electrifies the Rail inWales we will start to see the return of Tory MP's in the next elections.
Labour just simply did not deliver it, I doubt the Tories will, the Conservatives in Wales just do not lobby their own party masters in Westminster.

BLASPHEMY

So, I've calculated the figures for GVA per head GROWTH, by region/devolved nation, between 1997 and 2010. These are from the OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS data that I've linked to above, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to argue against them. These show how much our economy grew in Wales, compared to other parts of the UK, during that 13 or 14 year period. I will rank them and have the percentage growth over that period, in GVA per head, next to the name of the region, country. Here we go:

1. London 79.4%
2. Scotland 68.2%
3. SE England 64.4%
4. SW England 61.3%
5. NE England 60.7%
6. East of England 57.6%
7. NW England 56.9%
8. East Midlands 55.2%
9. Wales 55.0%
10. Northern Ireland 54.9%
11. Yorkshire & Humbs 50.9%
12. West Midlands 50.8%

Has anyone ever noticed if people in the West Midlands or Yorkshire are crap at business? And before anyone says any more negative stuff about Wales, we have performed just as well as the midlands and north of England during that period, and 23 million people live in England north of the line between the Wash and the Severn estuary. We are just as good at business and economics as the Northern half of England. FACT!

Once again if this Government electrifies the lines in Wales we will see the return of more Welsh Tory MP's.
Seats like Cardiff West, Cardiff North, Bridgend, Swansea West will all be targets.
We had years of labour and they did not deliver.
John Redwood singing the anthem will be just a memory.
Buisness in Wales will have a better chance to flourish.

perhaps if we put this into context it may help. what were the starting points? If Wales was a lot lower then it is easier to make signficant inroads.

notwithstanding that little point, you do not hear of the English bellyaching about their 'block' grant or about how successive Westminster governments have failed them and so on....you see the English will look after themselves....they don't complain about it anywhere near as much as we do.

Jantra,

If you have a look at regions such as Andalusia and Sicily you will find that Wales is in fact doing better than them. I'm not defending what has happened but statistics can be distorted to show what ever people want them to.

If you check the GDP of the European regions which I mentioned against that of Wales, you will find this.

There was also an article on Waleshome.org, which seems to have been shut down recently about where the extra £10 billion or so pounds come from, and in fact Wales gets back roughly what it puts in from everything. Not just taxes but also energy costs, the profits from the Crown estate, etc.

Download the first table on this page:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-250308
It's all there for you to see. You are imagining that Wales is some economic basket-case, or that we can't start or run companies. London, as you know is the foremost city for banking and finance in the world. The benefits of that wealth extend as far as monmouthshire. People in London would prefer a holiday home at £600000 in Cornwall to one at £300000 in Pembrokeshire, even though Pembs is just as beautiful and has similar weather to Cornwall and is easier to reach from London. I think that is because they see Wales as second-rate. Of course people in Northern England don't moan about the block.grant, they don't get one. All of the major urban areas in the UK have had some kind of electric rail/metro apart from Bristol. Please don't mention Bournemouth or Hull they are nothing like the metro areas of South Wales. The line to soton, pompey and Bournemouth was electrified in the '60s, Hull has never had electric rail, it has an Urban area of 300000, and a Larger Urban Zone of 560000.