I am hoping the very same Ashley, thanks for all your help and encouragement to date.

I have been considering what to do with the Cup's steering box...









I've had it all apart and reset it all loosely, despite outward looks it feels very nice. My main concern is the repair (strong despite appearance ) and the large chunk missing... has anyone run a car with this bit missing?

I have a feeling that provided it is braced properly at the top and bolted hard to the chassis rail it should prove to fine.

I would be tempted to get the tig welder out and replace the missing chunk Ruairidh...if only for the peace of mind!

Location: Near Bicester and nowhere near Europe

I too would try to add on a chunk and then machine the base. I do notice that the box has a machined wedge base for a lower steering angle. Or am I seeing things? cheers russell

Location: OZ

Ruairidh,

What angle is it? Measure this with it bolted on a chassis, measure the angle between the column and the chassis as you view from the side.

There is probably scope to modify a standard box as this does not look as low as an ulster column. Personally I would start with a steel box (plenty of those around) They were made for a couple of short periods, probably because Ali prices were high at the time. A steel box could be easy modified by building up and re-machining the angle of the base rather than the complicated job I did to make my ulster box.







A steel one would be much safer than welding the ali casting.


Regards

Rob

R

Location: The 3D shed, Tewkesbury

Thanks Rob,

It is 41º.

I am quite keen to try and keep the original box if I can but understand the problems with welding it, particularly as it appears quite a bit thinner than a standard one, perhaps this is why it has broken in the first place?

Not far off the angle of an ulster one. 39 degrees from memory. I suspect that means you would need to do the full blown cut and re arrange as I did.

R

Location: The 3D shed, Tewkesbury

Ruairidh,

According to the Source Book the 'sports' angled steering box gives a rim to floor of 16 13/16" vs std 20 7/8" (special 15")

If I have it right, the sports angled box is designated '9c' and apparently not common. The 1929 Austin Standard Sports is fitted with one having a few cracks but seems to be standing up OK. Many sports cars were fitted with a wedge under a standard box.

I don't remember the base being cut on the angle as in the picture of the one from the Cup, but maybe the drop angle was different.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Thanks Tony,

I have a 9C box fitted to my "Ulster", but it is difficult to measure the angle whilst fitted to the car, Rob suggests 39º.

As mentioned the box I have in the Swallow is marked the same as the Cup (?) one "1A 6041". A little more digging suggests this type of box may also have been fitted to Boat Tails and also the Type B Coupes. If so, they all have an angle of 41º. Can anyone else confirm or dispel this?

I will try and picture what I have next to a standard box for comparison later today.

Did you time that message perfectly on purpose then Ruairidh to give you 7:47?

Location: New Forest

The 1A 6041 steering box was indeed fitted to Swallows, Saloons and 2 seaters. I have the remains of a Taylor 2 seater that has a 1A 6041. I also have an early Austin built 2 seater (boat-tail) that also has a 1A 6041. In my experience they are not uncommon but I have not seen before now one that was machined to give an even lower angle.
The 1A 6041 is 41 degrees.
The 9C ???? (EA) is 37 1/2 degrees.
65/Nippy is 33 1/2 degrees.

Location: Oxted

Henry, thank you,

It is entirely possible that this box has been modified at some point.

This is a picture of it next to a standard "Chummy" column:





Tom Abernethy tells me that his car is fitted with a box marked "1A 6042"...

Are you in a position to able to measure the angle of the column on your Taylor Henry?

Can anyone verify what angle a Cup Model column should be please?

Ruairidh, sorry I can't do any measuring at the mo.
The Taylor box appears to be identical in every way to the Swallow. Neither have anything machined from the base and both are 1A 6041 with early coil ignition type columns and steering wheels.

Location: Oxted

I am certain, but cannot check at the moment, that the Swallow column is "raked" down from the standard column in the same way as the one I have for the "Cup".

Just to clarify, does your own "1A 6041" box have an identical rake as a bog standard Column, i.e. Chummy etc.?

Henry,

Cheers for that. I have checked the notes I have and the angles you quote are what I have for ulster and nippy respectively.

Ruairidh,

I have always understood that the swallow, austin coupe and boat tail columns are all more raked than a chummy and are all the same.

Regards

Rob

Location: The 3D shed, Tewkesbury

More digging in the Source book (page 94) has revealed that Tom is correct, the box should have "1A 6042", like this:



Not able to get a measurement on the angle of this box (yet) to compare with what I have.

Ruairidh - the Factory drawings supplied to Coachbuilders for the early models generally showed three types of column angle - Standard, Semi-Sports and Sports. You are correct in that the Cup models utilised the Semi-Sports rake, as did B Coupes, 2-seaters, Swallow etc. In degrees, the Standard was 49, the Semi-sports 41, according to the drawings (as Henry intimated) the 9C36 for the EA was 37 1/2. But it is interesting that in one publication Chris Gould said 35 and I've measured a genuine original Blown EA (with a Brooklands history) which was 36. The 65/Nippy was 33 1/2, but the Speedy drawing showed 35.
All this checking has caused me grief, for in just now measuring for you the angle of what I thought was the box and column for my '24 factory sports (which I always presumed from drawings would be 41 degrees) I find it is 37 1/2. Now I have to check around to find if this is original or do I have a short, unsplined column from a Super-Sports!
Getting back to yours, I'd suggest you disassemble the box, ensure you've removed all traces of oil (how-to suggestions on another contributions in last week or so), particularly from the inside of the box, and build up the missing piece with a Tig welder. It will then require cutting and filing down to the final shape, but the time and effort worthwhile and safe. I've in the past modified several standard boxes into Ulster-type in similar fashion. It's a pity we're not in the same parish, otherwise you could use my jig. Best of British. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

Many thanks for that Bill.

How on earth do you measure the rake of a steering box to the nearest half degree??? In situ the floor may not be parallel with the chassis if there is felt between it and the chassis.

Edward - the floor doesn't come into it. The factory drawings usually show the chassis rail line, not the body, and it's easy to establish the column angle from that rail. In most of the cases I mentioned, I've confirmed these angles "in the flesh" by clamping the boxes to a steel bench and taken the column angle with a proper instrument (as I did today on my mystery box), showing the factory knew what they were drawing. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

This is what you need to measure the angle.....

http://www.axminster.co.uk/gemred-digital-protractor-prod806694/?searchfor=digital%20protractor

Location: Oxted

My 1926 Cup is also fitted with a 1A 6042 steering box. I have much literature & sketches from Tom Abernethy on the assembly of the bodywork onto the chassis, the rear number plate brackets, the complete windscreen detail drawing plus assembly procedures, the sidescreens, the door catches & boot lid fastener if you are interested.

Location: Central France

Thank you for confirming that Arthur,

If it is ever possible for you to get at the column and measure it's angle I would be very interested indeed.

I have collected quite a lot of information and also have the remains of the original body. Tom has been very helpful already. I will get in touch and take you up on your kind offer in the near future, thank you.

My 1928 cup is fitted with a 1A6041 steering box which gives a chassis rail steering column angle of approx 41 degree's. The main consideration is that the steering column doesn't foul the underside of the dash board. On the Fred Dash car the distance between the column and dash board looks to be 2 inches , on mine it's only 1/2 inch

Location: Oxon

Thanks Nic,

There is hope yet for the column I have, it would seem...

I didn't know so many variations

1A 6041 41 degrees

1A 6042 ?

9C36 37 1/2 degrees (or 39)

33 1/2 degrees

35 degrees

36 degrees

any more?

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

My ebay electronic protractor arrived today and I was able to measure the steering column rake:



It looks to have been changed from it's original 41º down to 37.5º.

I am assuming this was a replacement for the original (damaged?) box (1A 6042?) and was modified to replicate the correct Cup Model angle? Hopefully someone can measure the angle of a 1A 6042 as this would confirm or dispel...

Hi,

A cheap alternative to measure angles and levels is this free download for Iphones and Ipods which is useful to check chassis for level and vertical parts of the body.

www.plaincode.com

Roger

Location: Haverfordwest

Roger - When body building or re-building,it's necessary to check that components are properly vertical to the chassis (I do it with 3' and 2' setsquares with extensions). Re "chassis level" - I doubt that you'll find many chassis exactly parallel to the ground (therefore not level) once they're mounted on their front and rear suspensions/wheels. A long straight-edge and/or a spirit level will also check for any "bows" in the chassis length. Apologies if I misunderstood you. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

Thanks for that Roger,

I find these phone "aps" extraordinary, amazing stuff.

To overcome the problem Bill highlights, for "this" situation, i think you would need to measure the angle the chassis sits at and then take this away from the column angle in situ, happy to be corrected.

More information via a telephone call from Barry Clark, he tells me the first of the Cups used a wedge unde a standard box and that the brake pedal pivot was then threaded into the hole, catastrophic failure of this idea was reported in the trials write ups of the time!

Barry also mentioned his belief that at least three different firms were used to build the bodies for GE which may explain the variances in construction techniques I am finding.

Early cars also appear to have variances in scuttle design and height, and presumably therefore, steering box rake??

Bill,

I take your point but if the chassis is pre levelled during rebuilds as mine is it is useful to check angles as well as just vertical and horizontals.
There is also a Setsquare App which works about the vertical axis, looks as though it could be good for setting angles on a milling machine or wood working etc.

Roger

Location: Haverfordwest

1A 6042 steering box measured at a 36.5º rake yesterday, another for your list Tony.

Thanks Ruairidh,

So there are-

1A 6041 41 degrees

1A 6042 36.5 degrees

9C36 37 1/2 degrees (or 39)

Are there part numbers for these? -

33 1/2 degrees

35 degrees

36 degrees

Were they all cast to the angle shown (which the 9c36 looks to be) or did some have the base machined to alter the angle slightly?

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Does anyone know if these should be painted or nickel plated please?

Hello Ruairidh,

Looking at old photos of original cars they seem to be unpainted, and I believe some were made from cast alloy, or aluminium.
There seems to be quite a variation in types of lights fitted to the various cars around now, and some are painted, some not!
The one on the left of your picture appears to be nickel plated - so I guess I would go for nickel plated.
I'm sure that there may well have been differences in the cars when originally produced depending on availability of components and price etc.

Regards,
Ashley

Location: Bracing Lincs United Kingdom

Thank you Ashley, very helpful.

The second P&H badge (see below) is missing and I would like to make another. It appears cast from gun metal-type material and then riveted to the body of the sidelight.




Can anyone offer any advice as to how I could make this, or a contact that may be able to help? It's not something I have any experience of. All help will be gratefully recieved.

I think the P&H badges are stamp pressed from german silver sheet, they certainly are on the P&H petrol cans. If I were faced with the task of making one I would have one cast in brass from the original and then have it nickel plated, better still cast in german silver. The badges are held in place by a central rivet. Incidently the Lucas and Cav badges are also press stamped in german silver.

If you could make a plaster cast mould and use some of this epoxy casting material in a pewter look alike that might do as a temporary fix. Just a thought - not ideal but a start to stimulate others.

Garry

Location: Down Somerset way!!

Thank you Edward and Garry.

Another chassis with strengthening straps has been pointed out to me, this time beneath a GE Stadium (not the recently posted Japanese one). I am very interested in any chassis that has these straps and the car they came to be fitted to...

Ruairidh,
When I saw you had posted on this thread again I said to myself "The booger has finished ANOTHER build" and got ready to weep in frustration at my slow progress.
Finished by your next posting?

Geoff - Repairing lathe after a senior moment!

Location: South Norfolk - Near Suffolk

Still doing "research" Geoff!

My September 1926 Chummy has straps on the rear cross-member, but they look home-made to me. They are single-sided (ie don't reach both sides of the X-member) and are made from tube with the ends flattened.

Happy to provide a picture if you are interested.

John

Hi John,

from your description I suspect these are the small bracing brackets fitted to the earlier short chassis, a photo will confirm this if you can post.

Many thanks.

R

Location: Auckland, New Zealand