It really does make me laugh when you here the pavlovian Labour party supporters tell us that the debt is rising under this government. The fact is the deficit was not going to be reduced to nil by June 2010 meaning that of course the debt was always going to rise. The clowns at the Labour party fail to realise that when you start with a deficit of £157bn it takes many years to bring that sort of irresponsible spending under control. Yet more evidence that the left are aloof from economic reality. If a government borrows it has to pay it back and it does so by taking taxes from tomorrows taxpayer to fund today’s services. That is intergenerational theft. The only time it is acceptable for governments to borrow is for infrastructure development as future generations – those that pay the taxes that fund it – get the benefit. However the Labour party used PFI so any borrowing was used to fund contemporaneous services. In other words, Labour borrowed heavily to bloat the public sector with 1m more jobs – almost all in administration positions – to secure votes. This meant that today’s taxpayer is left with a massive deficit to fund just so yesterdays society could have jobs. That is criminal and yet the lemmings still can’t work it out for themselves. Labour = fiscal diarrhea with no thought about the consequences for tomorrow’s generation. This problem we are in is without a doubt the result of Labours reckless spending to secure votes and it is taking a strong government to bring us back from the abyss.

I agree completely but you have to admit Osbourne is useless all this talk of cuts and austerity he's hardly mayed a start you look at the spending levels of this government he may as well be a Labour chancellor. Im afraid we are still living in Gordon Brown's world.

Oh look, economics is something else Jantra knows absolutely nothing about.

Is there no beginning to his talents?

What a substantive fact laden argument you present!Hats off to you good sir!

Perhaps you can explain what is incorrect with my post rather than following your party bluster than spending is good even if we can't afford it.

I do agree that the cuts haven't happened anywhere near as fast enough as we really need but the unions and the left have resisted and form of modernisation and acceptance that we aren't as rich a nation as we once were.

I honestly would try and emigrate for a time if Ed Balls ends up at the treasury in two years. I think Labour's poll lead atm is a bit exaggerated that question time audience in York didn't seem to buy their more borrowing and spending will magically solve our problems. Most people in this country understand this country is in too much debt already even if they don't fully comprehend the hole we are in.

Jantra and Huw capitalism is not an “economic reality” anymore than socialism is, they are both human constructs. Money is invented into existence out of nothing, fractional banking, quantative easing, printing cash etc. In itself money represents nothing.

Both systems rely, and capitalism has been the more successful in this respect, upon exploiting “economic growth”. The reality here is that growth only works if populations increase, if more energy is used in the system and if more resources( metals, plastics, agricultural goods, natural goods) are consumed.

This is the Achilles heel, the highest quality resources have already been used and the resources most easily accessed have already been used. We are moving irreversibly down a slope to lower quality more dispersed resources which take increasing amounts of energy to extract and process. Energy sources are moving down the same slope.

If more energy and resources are used to extract the remaining resources than was the case in the recent past then less is left for the rest of the economic system and it will grow more slowly and eventually contract.

Even if we ignore all the environmental damage we are on a path that the system cannot sustain and this is the real predicament we find ourselves in. Conservation and efficiency can help to maintain the system for a little longer and borrowing in these areas is justified.

The economy has many problems but a large part of government spending is on welfare and is a result of the current economic system not being able to utilise the human resource available, people are either under-employed or are unemployed. Even a substantial increase in manufacturing will not change this since manufacturing is largely mechanised. Mechanisation of service sectors (self driving vehicles) will in the future exacerbate the problem.

The UK can have the aim to export more to pay our way but that route is being pursued by every other nation on Earth and every country on Earth cannot be a net exporter. So debt at some stage has to extinguished somewhere on earth. Individuals and companies can enter bankruptcy and counties can extinguish odious debt (Iraq after US Invasion). If we cannot let banks go bust then you have to let countries go bust and extinguish debt in an orderly manner.

The current systems whether capitalism or socialism are leading us to a major crunch this century unless we can arrange a form of steady state economy.

It is for this reason above that I support high density housing and stiff restrictions for building on agricultural lands.

Jerermy

socialism looks to build a society based on equality which in itself is fair enough and an idealised aim. The big but here though is that left wing governments tend not to live within their means and borrow heavily to finance their social programmes. This is where it falls apart. Borrowing is fine if you are funding infrastructure - the payments of tax to cover the borrowing are paid by those who benefit from the infrastructure. This is fair. What is not fair is the inter-generational theft alluded to earlier. Why should my sons pay taxes in 20 years time to pay back bonds taken out by Labour in 2008 to fund its bloat of the public sector? Why shouldn't my sons taxes be spent to provide services to them rather than to pay back borrowings used to provide services to society before they were even born? It is utterly selfish for anyone to expect the next generation to pick up the tab just because we were too concerned with our own quality of life rather than making sure future generations have a better chance than we do.

I am a fiscal conservative - governments should only spend what they collect and no more. If we aren't productive enough as a society then we have to go without. It really does irk me when people complain of having to work 7 hours a day five days a week. That is part time - most people sleep more than they work.

If you want a good quality of life then you need to put the effort in. That means working. You can't expect a nation that has 40% of its population in the 'productive' sector to provide for themselves and the other 60% on a 35 hour week. The unions/left are mad to think this and need to realise the only way we can is to increase output - you do this by worker that little bit harder and little bit longer.

I think this article sums up the absolutely monumental, breathtaking incompetence and duplicity of the current regime in Westminster than anything I could possibly add:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/george-osbornes-economic-policy-based-lies

the new statesman - hardly objective journalism.

these infrastructure projects - how quickly do you think they happen? just for reference, HS2 is a bigger investment in national infrastructure than anything we saw between 1997-2010. The Coalition is doing more for the UK's long term stability than just sticking a plaster on it.

Of course you embarrass yourself and so does the journalist by reference to the investment bank - perhaps you have never heard of regulation, Basel 2, Solvency 2 and capital adequacy requirements, never mind european rules on state aid. We have already established the left know little about economic reality and it also appears they have complete disregard for the regulatory framework that we operate under.

I could go on - I'm surprised anyone of intelligence would read such an article as it is so full of flaws it really does current affairs reporting a complete dis-service. pure political bluster with no basis in fact.

The governmet could start a programme of house building more or less immediately, they could also restart the school building programme shelved by Gove when he took office. Both of these would help the construction industry which is currently dying on its arse.

As usual, your comments consist entirely of vacuous bluster, with no evidence of thought or insight.

actually, my comments are based in fact. perhaps you could explain which elements you think is lacking verisimilitude?

maybe you need to appreciate that the last administration did all they could to harm the UK construction industry. It certainly was in a lot worse shape in 2010 than it was in 1997. Red tape, petty bureaucracy and an archaic planning system do not help. Sadly this current administration have done little to overturn the control freakery favoured by the left - perhaps you haven't heard of CIS scheme. I operate it for a number of building firms and it is left wing bureaucracy at its worst.

You may also not be aware but construction is showing signs of recovery. You only have to look around Cardiff to see a number of tower cranes - always a good sign that construction is taking place. For the first time in years we have 7 if not 8 across the city.

The most recent economic statistics showed construction down 7.9% in January, and 10% over three months.

New orders were down 12.7%.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Construction is always down in January. Also why three months? Why not one year, two years or more. From what I am seeing, the building game is on the up albeit slowly.

I see you swerve my comments regarding the CIS scheme, capital adequacy rules for banks and pretty much everything else I've stated

so now you are saying that Cardiff is doing well in terms of private-sector investment in construction?
Flip-flop or wha'?!
You should re-read Jeremy's piece on economics above. A Steady-state economy is what the UK should be aiming for, with improved opportunity for people regardless of background. I know the resident economist on here didn't envisage a recession; let alone a double or quintuple dip but Jeremy sums it up perfectly for those immersed in dogma and cant.
Jantra, there is no point lumping Plaid in with those failed London parties. We will become radical and innovative in our direction and policies. We don't have paymasters in England to please.
YMLAEN!

A dog is a four legged animal. That doesn't mean all four legged animals are dogs. Just because construction is picking up in Cardiff does not mean that cardiffs private sector is doing as well as other cities.

Would you care to explain plaids radical and innovative approach to saving Wales from years of going backwards? Hopefully an approach which doesn't have language fascism anywhere near it.

Construction was down 7.9% compared to last January.

I have no idea where you are sitting (Dubai? Fairyland?) but I can see precisely two major projects under construction in Cardiff at the moment, and one of them is a hospital, paid for by the dreaded public sector/Welsh Government.

actually it is paid for by the tax payer - the people who go out and make the stuff that is taxed. how about Admiral - is that not a major construction project? Or Prospect Place?

You haven't actually addressed any of the points raised here:

How is growth going to resume under the current set of demonstrably failed economic policies?

How is debt going to be reduced, particularly the corporate financial sector debt, equivalent to 300 - 400% of GDP?

How is the economy going to be reformed to return it to productive industries which benefit the public, rather than financial services which benefit a tiny elite of sociopaths and criminals?

that;s because they've not actually been raised previously. I don't have a crystal ball and can only answer the questions you ask and not the ones you wished you had asked.


honest answer is it takes time. Any economic policies take a good few years to become fully effective. You can't have a starting position as we had in 2010 and expect everything to be resolved 3 years later. I am of the opinion that no matter who is in government we are facing austerity for many years yet. We spent all the money in the 2000s and now we have to pay back what we spent. It means we go short now because we preferred rampant consumerism back then.


can you explain what corporate financial debt has to do with anything? My taxes are not used to plug that particular gap. At present £60bn per annum is spent on financing public debt - that is £60bn that could be spent on building new hospitals, schools, roads, two lots of HS2's every year. Instead our government has to give it away because yesterdays society were so 'me me me' they wanted services that we could not afford so we had to borrow to finance them.

ask a proper question not full of nonsense and I'll merit it with an answer.


can you also square this particular circle for me. both you and b Lee dingbovious are fully paid up members of the innovative radicalists. How can you have such differing opinions regarding Cardiff. One of you beleives Cardiff is doing very well in the UK context and the other thinks Cardiff is struggling. i imagine the party whip will have their work cut out bringing you two mavericks into line.

Jantra. Lyndon didn't say that Cardiff was struggling. He said that the construction sector was. You have inferred, wrongly probably that he thinks that Cardiff is struggling. We are struggling/thriving on roughly a par with other major UK cities
Try reading and UNDERSTANDING Jeremy's post, then mine and Lyndon's follow-ups. Maybe these ideas are too radical for your mind.

but construction in Cardiff is on the up as evident by the number of construction projects we see across the city. You are the poster who thinks Cardiff is a wealthy city. you've claimed it before. Perhaps you can explain how this wealth hasn't transpired into a central square that we can be proud of. Cardiff struggles to create any sort of private sector wealth yet you think - and I have no idea why - that we are a wealthy city. the aforementioned central square would suggest otherwise. Or perhaps we're so rich and wealthy we don't need vanity projects such as a decent welcome to our city to convey our wealth.


I've read Jeremy's post and it says - paraphrasing - that we are using up all the Earth's resources, we now have diminishing returns and that we should make sure we keep enough land set aside for farming.

sounds quite bucolic really. the only thing is, i disagree. We have no idea what's under the Earths crust - in the Oceans, on the moon and so on. A lot of what Jeremy says makes sense from a prudent point of view but the reality is we just have no idea how much resource we actually have under our feet. not only that but necessity is the mother of all invention. Who is to say tomorrow's methods of extraction/production are going to resemble anything like today's?

Jantra, just because Central Square hasn't been developed, doesn't mean that Cardiff isn't a wealthy city. In absolute terms, Cardiff is a wealthy city. In relative terms, Cardiff is a fairly affluent city. So what if Bristol has slightly higher office rents or Manchester has more funky bars? The differences are pretty small.
I don't have much to my name but I am grateful for what I do have. I am lucky to have been born in a rich country and to have a roof over my head and food in my fridge. I have devoted my life to study, my offspring, voluntary work (building up people's self esteem and advocacy) and working for a better, independent Wales. I am not interested in having a big house or flashy car.
The biggest problems that we face as a nation are negativity and fear. People who constantly find fault with Wales or the Welsh aren't helping,are they?
These self-hating Welsh men and women believe that there isn't the talent to run the country politically or administratively, or that we don't have the entrepreneurial talent or business skills to have a successful economy. What is it then, about the Welsh that makes us so uniquely talentless? Everyone from Bolivians to Mongolians manage to run their own countries. Are we genetically different?
No we are not. We are psychologically different. Conditioned to think that we are a bit crap by the British state, over the past centuries and also by the traitors (to themselves and their compatriots) in our midst.

If you don't like Wales,if all you want to offer is negativity and criticism, then please move somewhere where you will be happier. You don't like us and we can't stand you.

You are dragging Wales down more than any of the issues,people,institutions, events or attitudes that you moan about so much.
Please leave. We will be better off without you

so it's a Wales for those who only agree with your views. splendid.

Since you are a paid up member of the innovative radicalists can you explain what a few of the policies around the following are. I am a floating voter and can be easily convinced...

1. what is plaids position regarding Schengen?

2. do plaid want independence? If the answer is yes, is this independence from Westminster where we replace the Westminster begging bowl with the Brussels begging bowl or do we want full independence where we stand on our own tow feet without any outside interference whatsoever? The reason I ask is that if Plaid are happy to take the Brussels begging bowl then that really isn't independence and merely anti English sentiment. It is ok to be beholden to Brussels but not Westminster.

3. what will Plaid do to make Wales a thriving economy with a strong private sector?

As for your comments regarding my opinion of Wales, this is based upon travelling extensively and seeing how things can be done in other not so affluent areas right across the world.

you say Cardiff is wealthy and affluent but I disagree. We have a shit hole for a central square. If we had any money then Central square would not be the embarrassment that it is. We have an economy that is totally reliant on state support from England, we have an airport that belongs in a museum. we have politicians who can't see that Wales economy runs east/west both in the north and south and try and create links between North and South via ridiculous state subsidy of airlines. The law of unintended consequences gave IWJ a shorter journey to work though - how lucky was that!

perhaps you can go some way towards explaining why Plaid are worthy of my vote - how do they intend to stimulate the Welsh economy? will they have courage in their convictions and tell Westminster to reduce Barnett to only what we pay into Westminster (after all independence means fiscal independence).

These are questions I have asked and the paid up party members of the innovative radicalists have yet to provide any sort of answer.

Also, can Plaid guarantee no form of language fascism whatsoever?

Schengen? We don't have a policy. We don't need one.

Independence? Yes from the UK. Many within the party disagree with the EU as is. The European Commission must be reformed. That IS policy. I would prefer the EU to be scrapped.

Thriving economy? Independence and then a generation of good education, national esteem-building, investing in our strengths (energy,culture, tourism,higher education, life sciences, automotive, aviation, food, proximity to London),meritocracy without the albatross of the English class system around our necks.

Given that Welsh coal powered the Royal Navy as it raped and pillaged the world I think that the whole Barnett argument is fraught with contradictions. England has had an extracive ,colonial attitude to Wales and has hamstrung our efforts to be self sufficient.
There is such extensive literature on these subjects. Maybe you should research the history of your country a little because you come across as blinkered and ignorant.
If we carry on as an appendage of England I doubt that we will prosper in the decades or centuries to come. But I also doubt that we will starve.
Other people have pointed out that all the economic indicators for the North-East region of England are very similar to those of Wales. The population is about 3 million in each area and both are post-industrial. The legacy of failing to replace the coal and steel industries haunts both the NE and Wales.
If we were independent we would, in my opinion have more people in power with a vested interest in our prosperity. We would be able to vary our policies and statutes to exploit niches and promote our strengths. The recent Heseltine report suggested devolving some economic levers to regions in England . This has been welcomed in the North East. I bet there isn't a single Geordie or Mackem who thinks "hold on, we are a bit crap at running things, better let London keep its powers".

And do you know why? They don't have the self-hating psychology of the pathetic Welsh lickspittles. They don't have any Jantras
Lucky bastards.

of course you do, as it stands the UK is outside of Schengen. If Wales achieves independence with Plaid at the helm (that is your aim) then I want to know what you are going to do about free movements of people?


madness. Between 1914-1945 100m people were murdered for no other reason than the power brokers couldn't get round the table and sort their differences like gentlemen. the EU is a force for good - even I, the arch libertarian, appreciate this bureaucratic millstone is an absolute necessity. It also brings people closer together. I love travelling across Europe and being free. It appears you do not. that's quite an insular viewpoint.


we got there in the end. It is the English' fault. bugger me with a prize winning water melon - you could have at least attempted to thinly veil it.


South Wales was an agrarian economy prior to the industrial revolution. The Scottish (the Butes in case you can't work out) made a lot of money out of Wales, not the English. Saying that they left a lasting legacy of some fantastic infrastructure, wonderful parkland and the UKs best civic centre.

It wasn't the English that exploited Wales it was the Scottish but why let the truth get in the way of English bashing.


I am not the one who hates the English because of the actions of the Butes/Scottish. I am not the one who hates Europe or wishes to see Wales as an autarky. I am an internationalist, I hate nationalism, it is a petty disease of the mind. we are all the same.


give over, it is a line on a map. in this day and age it means very little.


so what is your point then?


the fundamental difference is that the geordies are not trying to secede from England - they don't bite the hand that feeds.


utter nonsense. I have 2 councillors, 1 MP, 3 AMS and 1 MEP. That is 7 fuckwits with competing aims 'representing' me at various levels. That isn't democracy. I'm not sure what century you are living in but the UK in the 21st century is very meritocratic - yes there are some leftovers from a bygone age but by and large we have freedom of speech, freedom of movement, decent quality of life, good life expectancy. Whether I pay homage and taxes to 60 tyrants 1 mile away or 600 150 miles away makes no difference to me. They don't really affect my life.


see above, the north east is part of england and they are not trying to secede. this just shows you don't read my posts. I have the belief that Wales could succeed on its own and wish to see the day when at least we can say we pay our own way even if we stay part of the union (I'm not anti union at all). I just don't see achieving any of that without a strong productive sector. We don't have one at present and we rely on English subsidy. You won't answer that particular question(reduction of Barnett) thought preferring to obfuscate and blame the English for the exploitation of the Scottish.

sticks and stones, does your argument or your cause no good at all.

I do care about the sick, the poor,the frightened and the persecuted. That's who I am. I do worry about you a bit because You,Jantra are a bleedin mentalist. God knows why you think that you work a fourteen hour day.
I am grateful that your time in Plaid was brief. You are all over the place mate. A legend in your own mind.
God bless

in what way am I a mentalist? try and be specific. that is quite an accusation.

also, are you indicative of plaid in general with your dislike of anyone who doesn't wish to leave the union and go and live in some 19th century idyll?

nationalism is a sick and twisted condition. no one nation is better than any other. we are all human. to suggest you need specific people to govern an arbitrary line on a map is irrational.

you continually ignore my questions and respond with ad hominem insults (I use the term loosely as its passable as comedy). that says a lot more about you than it does anything else.

Jantra. Mentalist because of all the arguments you have online with dozens of different people. You don't "listen", you change the thrust of your argument, refuse to admit that you are wrong, you don't seem to know how to research subjects that you argue about.
You are a libertarian, from the Chicago school, or the Austrian school, or a conservative or whatever. All these high-falutin ideas you have about yourself.
All your fantasies about being a pill-poppin, body-rocking DJ of repute, or a lone crusader against the incompetence and corruption of the Welsh political, governing and business class.

It's all very funny but also quite sad. You have been described as Quixotic. I prefer to think of you as Meldrewesque or maybe a tragic analogue of Rik from the Young Ones updated to the present era.
I genuinely feel sorry for you

The arguments happen because I dare speak my mind and state what are, to some, unpalatable truths. Bringing my personal life or history into is poor form but to be expected when you have no argument. You claim that I am wrong but offer nothing to counter my point of view save for rhetoric - its all piss and wind

BTW

libertarian = wish to see less state interference and wish for individuals to be responsible for their own actions and path in life. the state certainly does not know best

fiscal conservative = governments have no right to take off tomorrows taxpayer to provide for todays taxpayer. that is theft. lets live within our means and if we have to go without then so be it

austrian school = free market economy with as little government intervention as possible - in other words, the market will - if left to its own devices - provide the optimum allocation and best utilisation of resource to the benefit of all. inflation is a way for governments to manage their debts although they mask it as price inflation. inflation did not really exist prior to central banks acting for governments. hence if governments ignored monetary policy and let prices fluctuate on their own, prices would be stable as the money supply would be stable. if you double the amount of money and double prices at the same time, including wages, then in real terms you still have the same purchasing power as before. poor governments default, governments with their own printing press increase the money supply (QE). it is artificial. money only has value because governments will accept it in lieu of taxation.

i was never a DJ - although I did some producing with a university friend of mine.

what the above has to do with anything only you know. it is not highfalutin, grandiose or pompous, it is a set of basic principles that most accountants will follow. we as a profession have to maximise resource and capital allocation, we have to increase productivity. you don't achieve that via someone with no interest in your business or goal telling you what to do.

What does this have to do with anything? An independent Wales would be in the same situation as the Republic of Ireland, it would be impossible for us to join Schengen as long as England stayed out.



Yes.



More than George Osborne. Which wouldn't be difficult, as he is doing absolutely fuck all.

The ship is sinking, time to start thinking about the liferafts.

Good answers, lots of meat on the bones.

Why couldn't Wales adopt schengen?

Lyndon answered you. If an independent England wasn't signed up to it, what would be the point? The bureaucracy involved in administering the border controls between England and Wales would be enormous. I gave you the answers to your questions as best I could.
Do you truly believe that you get into arguments because other people can't accept the (your) "truth"?

You don't know how to have a discussion, let alone a debate. When it comes to arguing, you don't follow the conventions that human culture and the development of mind,language and relationship as concepts has produced.
You don't argue. You do something else, half gibbering, half ranting. Let's call it jantra-ing.
For the love of God, please stop.

If Wales was independent we wouldn't have the tax base to fund our Public sector largesse so we would have to make the pro-market reforms we badly need like privatisation just like happened in eastern Europe in the 90's I would be very supportive of that. That's what I don't understand about Plaid pushing for independence and more fiscal devolution their elected politicans like Leanne Wood are contastanly preaching against "austerity" going on marches in support of the public sector yet if we end up with what they want then we won#t be able to use powers over tax and spend to fund the aims of their silly dogmatic socialist ideology. They are a joke of a party I always think of how they went into coalition with Labour back in 2007 when they could have led a rainbow coalition, they have failed to over Wales anything no wonder they have 11 AM's.

Excuse my spelling on that lol I typed very fast and i'm dyslexic.

Does England or the UK have the tax base to fund its public sector largesse? No it doesn't.
Even some Tories are coming out against austerity. I personally agree with it in principle but I lead an austere life; compared to most people I have very few vices or material goods. I don't smoke,drink very much, buy clothes more than necessary to keep me warm and decent, gamble, buy ready meals/takeaways or eat out. It's pretty cheap to live like that and I am happy doing it.
As to Plaid being a joke of a party, remind me which of Labour, Conservatives or LibDems HAVEN'T presided over economic and constitutional FUBARS and been mired in sleaze, corruption and worse?

Oh yeah, thought so.

Jantra my view of the future is anything but bucolic more of a nightmare.
The problem that you do not address is that growth in an economic sense means that worldwide humanity uses increasing amounts of all resources. Not steady demand but increasing demand. This means you have to find more and more reserves and be able to extract the resource with ever increasing speed and in ever increasing amounts. Exponential growth is the Achilles heel.

Technology can enable limits to be overcome, Newcombes steam engine to pump water out of coal mines was one of the earliest examples from the modern world. Fracking for coal and oil is one of the more modern examples , although it has been available as a technology since the 1970’s. Still there are limits, for example once you are using more energy to extract a unit of energy than you can usefully use it becomes a pointless exercise. Similarly with metal ores you can develop technology to exploit lower and lower grades of ore, but as an ore is a concentration of a particular element in the earths crust you will often find that concentration suddenly drop off a cliff straight to a general background level in continental rocks. You cannot go ever deeper into the crust, temperature, humidity and pressure overcomes any potential technology ( I am ignoring the asteroid or moon potential as lumps of metal coming down the Earth’s gravity well at 25,000mph does not fill me with confidence)

As an example of how the UK mishandles it’s resources just look at the example of natural gas in the news this week end as we are coming close to rationing in March. Why? Not a broken pipeline but the inability to think long term and develop storage facilities. Germany can store over three months of gas, buying supply when cheaper in the summer, and can cover interruption in supply. A couple of cold weeks and the UK is in trouble. In addition the UK burns through reserves as quickly as possible so that the North Sea is depleting fast while the Netherlands (which has the largest gasfield in Europe, Gronigen) will still be producing for the next 50 years. The Netherlands has ignored commercial pressures and limits extraction. The UK privatisation of gas resources has been a disaster.

Markets put short term e.g. wrong values on resources and allocate them to the present rather than utilising them prudently, they do not think about resources available to our sons .

As you should be able to see prudent and exponential do not mix.

In addition, Jantra, hard work and long hours is no guarantee of a” good quality of life” if it was those living in the slums of Lagos or Bombay would all be multi-millionaires.

Government borrowing is not all bad, you and I have been paying our taxes that has in part been used to pay interest on first world war bonds, there is no redemption date and the interest rate is so low that redemption of other debts has taken priority, but after hundred years the debt has been reduced by inflation. Useful little trick and not the end of civilisation. Beyond that though while interest on government debt is paid it is not all lost to the UK economy, in 2012 31% of the debt was owned by overseas holders but 23% is held by insurers and pension funds (probably your own pension pot), 9% by banks and building societies and 26% by the Bank of England and the remainder by individuals, companies, local authorities. The majority of that interest is recycled back into the UK economy.

A new economic model is needed and will arrive by fair means or foul. I would prefer the fair means because foul will be unpredictable and likely violent. Keeping to our current course will lead to disaster not just to the UK but the world.

you have a very high opinion of yourself

The state is nearly half the UK economy atm we seem to be able fun that although our economy is flat lining mainly because we are one of the top 10 biggest economies in the work and the bond markets haven't started jacking up our interest rates yet although we have been downgraded. But you didn't answer my fundamental point Plaid the socialists want an independent Wales they want more public spending yet it's already over 70% of the Welsh economy! I ask you again how is Prime Minister Leanne Wood going to pay for that? I called them a joke of a party because despite Welsh Labour's incredible failure they and while claiming to be the "party of Wales" they only amassed 11 AM's at the last assembly election.

Wales will prosper as Plaid will adopt economic policies that cater to the interests of the people of Wales, rather than those of the rent-seeking parasites in the City of London.

And someone who appears to be a Tory is not well placed to describe any other political party as a "joke", it's not our Chancellor who is an international laughing stock.

no he didn't. he said what he wanted, he didn't say how Plaid would deliver it, pay for it, time scales and on.

independence will see a shortfall of around £9bn per annum, where is the money coming from?


so only do what England do???


you said what you wanted, you gave no indication of how it would be delivered or funded. basically what you have said is what all political parties are saying.


my 'truth' is that Wales doesn't have an economy to sustain independence and maintain our standard of living. that is the harsh truth. We are a quasi socialist state with one third of our output being derived from the public sector - English funded subsidy. you take that away and our economy collapses. but we can say we did it ourselves so all is right with the world.


I am not the one resorting to petty insults. I am trying to offer facts and present opinions. It is fine that you don't agree with them but try and be civil.

you (and Lyndon) haven't presented any argument for independence other than some idealised windmill chasing. People want jobs, they want security. To be honest most couldn't care if they were governed by London or Cardiff as long as they had a decent standard of living. you seem to think that having independence will see us good - it won't. our living standards will plummet.

in what way will Wales prosper? do you expect living standards to rise? will we see a marked improvement in our economy? how will this improvement happen? how will it be financed?

you forgot to add - in your opinion. Osborne is doing ok considering the mess he inherited. a little dose of realism goes a long way. He inherited a deficit of £157bn. It is now £120bn. That is progress.

growth is not something I have overlooked. I just see the world as being a big place. There is plenty of land available. Africa will be very rich within 100 years. It will feed the world.


ignore the dead dinosaurs as that is not the future. the future of energy are the oceans. We are not far off some form of low energy nuclear reactions. it will happen within your lifetime. we will have almost unlimited energy then.


I never said it would. I said we can't expect to have that lifestyle we want working 7 hours a day 5 days a week. if total employment is 24m (private/productive sector) out of 62m, those 24m have to provide for the 62m. Add in people expect to retire at 60 you can have a situation where you work less in your life than you are in school/retirement. That is just not enough.


firstly, £100bn is not small change. Labour borrowed £100bn more than the trend between 2003-2008. That was £500bn of extra borrowing over a five year period. That costs us £25bn per annum. That is more than the economic output of Wales. That is not small change.

secondly, interest is the creation of new money. it doesn't increase output it deflates the worth of the money in your pocket.


I here this all the time but few if any tell us what this model will look like. FWIW, I don't think there is anything wrong with capitalism. it is the best model we have. the issue was not the model, it was rampant consumerism and greed that caused the mess we find ourselves in

Are you Osborne's last remaining fanboy? Even the rest of the Tory Party now think he's a useless twat.

He only managed to keep the deficit below last year's figure by delaying payments due to international organisations from March to April, which is possibly the most pathetic and infantile dodge imaginable. Only you seem impressed.

nonsense. he's doing an ok job. i doubt very much if anyone can do much with the UK economy. it was built on credit which has contracted considerably. Considering the credit line has contracted and government spending has fallen, GDP remaining flat since 2010 is quite an achievement.



are you swallowing the party bluster again? I think you'll find HMT account on an accruals basis meaning the borrowing would be included but not the interest payment. not only that, HMT were unable to pay the money that was due as a result of monetary controls. It made commercial sense to delay the payment as it was in the UKs interest to do so.

FAO Lyndon / B Lee Dingobvious

I have asked in this thread how Plaid intend to finance all these wonderful initiatives that no other political party has ever thought of :- good education, strong skills based economy, investment in infrastructure and so on.

is there any chance of you explaining to us floating voters how Plaid is going to turn what is effectively an almost third world nation subsidised by England into a Celtic BRIC equivalent? I'd really like to believe that we have a party who can do all of that but as an accountant I'd really like to understand the finances to make sure it is not pie in the sky wishy washy political round objects.

We'd restore economic growth to Wales for a start.

You remember economic growth? It's that thing we used to have before George Osborne moved into No 11.

Don't bother I asked that twice.