For "economic growth" substitute "borrowing".

I'm genuinely a floating voter - do you actually have any feasible ideas on how Plaid would achieve this? It's a little damaging to your party in my opinion that you have dodged this question a few times...

How exactly? How is it going to be financed? What initiatives? How about the immediate 9bn shortfall in Barnett funding? How about the loss of public sector jobs that we provide to the union? I'm thinking of dvla, HMRC, armed forces and so on


What currency would we adopt? Would we be beholden to the European central bank or the bank of England or would we have out own currency? If the latter great but if not then are we truly independent passing fiscal policy to an external central bank?

I am not Plaid Cymru's economic spokesman.

The party supports investing in Welsh business, ensuring public sector procurement is spent in Wales, tax policies that favour cooperatives and small businesses at the expense of multinationals, investment in green energy.

http://www.english.plaidcymru.org/business-economy-and-transport/

Not like Gideon Osborne then:

UK Borrowing

2011/12 £121 billion
2012/13 £120.9 billion
2013/14 £119 billion (optimistic prediction)

But no growth.

so you're commenting on matters you don't really understand. I suppose that is fair enough and it is big of you to admit it.




the first two would probably fall foul of European competition law, the next is extremely quixotic. How else do you expect Wales to purchase the raw products, goods and consumables it needs without having some form of multinationals present in the country? We live in a gobal economy FFS. I've heard enough, pie in the sky nonsense without any consideration to the economic reality of the 21st century.

Only one other country in the world tries localism and that is North Korea. What ambition Plaid must have.

investment in green energy is good. I assume they will be fully supportive of nuclear energy.

That's rich coming from someone whose knowledge of economics could be quite comfortably accommodated on the back of a matchbox.




Nope



https://www.sell2wales.co.uk/



Grow up. If you're supposed to be a typical representative of Welsh business then it's obvious why we're in the shit.

Whilst I don’t admit to know much, it would appear I know more than anyone at Plaid. You’ve not answered the following:-

What happens to the £9bn shortfall in funding from Westminster?
What happens to the tens of thousands of public sector jobs that currently provide services to the union?


Yes they would. In any tendering process you cannot favour a Welsh company over say an English company. To do so would be illegal under European law.


I am well aware of Sell2Wales. Again, you cannot discriminate against another company based in the EU. Any business in the EU can use Sell2Wales to be part of the WG tendering process. To deny them the opportunity would be illegal.


You’re really good at selling your party’s ideals aren’t you. B Lee dingobvious dished out the sticks and stones and it appears so do you. The autarky comment was relevant. Likewise the North Korea comment. Shunning big business, Welsh only co-operatives. That is localism. How can you expect to be part of the EU when you intend to create laws that favour Welsh business over other EU businesses?

You’ve skirted the issues about how you intend to pay for all of this. We will have a significant shortfall in funding, we will see a huge loss of jobs, taxes will have to rise across the board reducing everyone’s quality of life as a result. Can you honestly say you expect everyone to suffer years of hardship as a result of this independence Plaid seek? I can’t. I also find it someone hypocritical that Plaid wish to see years of hardship to achieve independence but are not prepared to support years of hardship and actively oppose it when such hardship comes from England.

Lets cut to the chase. Plaid want to replace the Westminster begging bowl with the Brussels begging bowl. It is not really independence, it is being independent of Westminster and England

Jantra, Huw.
Plaid's position is quite simple. London doesn't care about Wales' economic development. London has underinvested in Wales historically. The lack of an electrified local rail network and a line to London is proof of this. The "electrification of the railways" thread has numerous examples of other parts of the UK with smaller populations than South Wales having had electrified rail since the '60s eg Bournemouth and East Anglia.
London doesn't care about Wales and continues to see us as an Energy-cow. The energy used to be coal, it us now LPG wind and tidal. Hence the refusal of Westminster to allow the WG to have powers over planning energy projects over 50mw and the UK riding roughshod over local opposition at South Hook and the recent wind turbine plans in Carmarthenshire and other projects.
We believe that having Welsh people who care about Wales making policy and implementing it will, in the long term benefit our country.
The UK is borrowing £120 bn a year. Wales share of that is about £6 bn.
We don't know the future of the EU. We don't know the future of the Euro. We don't know the future of the UK within the EU. We don't know the future of the UK, given the referendum in Scotland next year. We don't know the future of the pound.
Given all that uncertainty, Plaid is reformulating it's policies in all of these areas.
We produced a paper last year called "bridging Offa's gap". We know that independence could be painful. But we believe that we could run the country better than any of the London parties, who all have paymasters in England and a vested interest in keeping Wales dependent and poor.
Under Plaid and independence our children and grandchildren will have better lives. They won't believe,like yo do Jantra, that they and their country are second-rate or crap at government or business. Their pride in their nation won't derive solely from victories in different codes of football. They will be citizens of the world,like the denizens of any other country, not subjects of the English.



Here is the pdf, Bridging Offa's Gap


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.english.plaidcymru.org%2Fuploads%2Fdownloads%2FOffas_gap.pdf&ei=sIBRUaKyEcyzhAeC6ICgAg&usg=AFQjCNGW496ZpPLQNA40B6ebhe48P75FJA

Who knows what the shortfall is? Nobody has done really accurate analysis on how much taxation is raised in Wales, and much of the spending is pure guesswork. Any deficit would be met from new sources of revenue (several obvious targets spring to mind immediately), spending cuts (again, one or two large and obvious ones) and borrowing.




They'll be redeployed to government services we repatriate from England.





Bullshit, there are innumerable exemptions to competition law that allow you to do just that.



Again, bullshit.



We have already suffered nearly a century of hardship, since WW1 cut off our global export markets. The UK is economically dysfunctional and simply does not work in the interests of the UK regions, see Stephanie Flanders for details:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934564

We have absolutely fuck all chance of narrowing the gap with Imperial London while we remain attached as an ignored, neglected vestigial remnant of Empire.

http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/12/procurement-policy-big-business-for-wales/

BLD

Just because I am pro union does not mean I am anti Wales. I just think we don't have a particularly good track record at developing our indigenous businesses and we have a very poor record in provision of public services. so forgive me for not gleefully skipping towards the pro independence brigade.

Both you and Lyndon continue your anti English tirade which has little or no basis in fact. It was the Butes that exploited Wales and not the English. It was the Butes who took the Welsh gold and made a profit - not the English.

What is also based in fact is that Wales is a net recipient of funding under Barnett. You can't possibly be one of the poorest areas in the UK and at the same time get higher funding than England per capita without being a net recipient of funding. No one is Plaid can answer the question to the Barnett gap and we also have the loss of public sector jobs that Lyndon thinks will be plugged by transferring services from the UK to Wales. Well the UK has a ration of 1:4 in the public sector whereas Wales has 1:3. That means that we will see some job losses as union services are trnasferred to England and Wales services are transferred from the UK. A straightforward calculation shows you that Wales will lose 1 in 4 public sector roles if we are too match Englands 1:4 ratio.

I've read the report and whilst it is an interesting read it really is clutching at straws. The more I hear from the nationalists the more I realise this goal of independence is at all costs without reference to improving our quality of life. Wales is a poor nation, we don't have much in the way to sell. That doesn't mean I'm not proud of my country, just I realise that we will see our existing quality of life drop as a result of independence.

You mention improving certain industries but how are you going to encourage the capital inflows when Plaid plan to adopt such an anti business anti corporate stance to multinationals? Where is the capital coming from to develop our industries? It has to come from somewhere Wales can't just pretend the wealth exists.

Another example, why haven't we established a national farmers cooperative? The dairy cooperative in New Zealand is their largest business, my mate went to work in one of their research labs, using molecular genetics to improve the productivity of the dairy herd:

http://www.fonterra.com/global/en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonterra

We produde large amounts of milk from farms in West Wales, but much of it is sent straight to England for processing. Virtually no Caerphilly cheese is actually made in Wales.

Lyndon

you really arent getting this are you. No one is saying it cannot be an aim to ensure local procurement of services, but you cannot legislate for it. To do so will be illegal under EU law. Any public service organisation has to make the tender process fair to all parties including those from outside their jurisdiction.

also, you ignore the UK debt that Wales will pick up, you ignore the loss of funding under Barnett (we are a net recipient of funds), you ignore the cost of funding the debt we take on, our interest levels will be much greater than the UKs, you ignore the fact we have a private sector that is much smaller than is required hence we will struggle to generate any sort of wealth with the majority of it going to external parties in the form of interest.

your answer is more taxes and borrowing more. so in other words, you will reduce peoples disposable incomes reducing their quality of life whilsst placing additional tax burdens on future generations. What a surprise.

great, where is the money coming from to finance such an initiative? are we going to borrow more and run the risk this doesn't work leaving future generations with a bigger problem than we have now?

or are we going to cut services now to finance it? you can't just magic co-operatives out of thin air, they have to be financed

Ideas for increasing revenue for the Welsh Republic:

The Crown Estate: The land, coast and seabed of Wales do not belong to Mrs Windsor, they belong to the people of Wales. Revenues are fairly small at the moment, but the potential for offshore windfarms is obvious. These assets should be managed for the interests of the Welsh people.

Water exports: Sorry Birmingham, you're going to have to pay for it.

Electricity: Wales is a major exporter of energy, which England is going to be short of pretty soon as most of the coal-fired stations close due to EU environmental legislation. In particular, Dinorwic supplies most of the spare "surge" capacity for southern Britain. It shouldn't take a genius to take some financial advantage for Wales out of this position.

The LNG pipeline: this supplies over 10% of the UK's gas, with the capacity for up to 30%. As long as we're not greedy we can impose transit fees.

Second home taxes: obviously.

Charges to the MoD for using Sennybridge, Eppynt and Castle Martin. These ranges cannot be easily replaced by the English armed forces.

Former US Treasury Secretary states that UK government economic policies are "illogical":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934894

Lyndon

a couple of points:-

Wales has not suffered a century of hardship. Wales is part of the UK and whilst it may be one of the poorest parts, we have food, healthcare, schools, clean water, heating, lighting and so on. if you want to see poverty, go to Chad.

secondly, are you really sure you want to play tit-for-tat with England over the use of resources such as water? I don't think it would be a good idea personally. What if England decide to put tolls on the SSC and Severn Bridge costing £1k per time? silly maybe, but lets face it, we need England far more than they need us.

you also state that there is no evidence that Wales is a net recipient of funding from HMT. However, your cohort has provided a paper from the party you follow without question. The paper is called Bridging the (fictitious) offa gap. That flies in the face of your claim that we are not net recipients. So I'm confused - either you were wrong and we are net recipients or you were right and Plaid's economic Commission are telling fairy stories. Perhaps you can clarify?

it is also useful to note that Plaid have no real economic or fiscal policy at present. you've dressed it up as turmoil in the EU etc etc but I happen to think it is very important to know if (i) we will have our own currency (ii) will we have an independent central bank (iii) with the government be limited to its borrowing (iv) are we going to be beholden - like Cyprus - to other nations and thus not really be independent?

NB i've read the aforementioned paper and whilst it is full of pretty graphs and diagrams, it doesn't really state anything of substance. all it tells us is that Wales is getting worse in terms of performance and output. It gives no answers or sets out no strategy/costings/timescales.

Lets agree on something, Africa has a lot of potential. We will ignore for the time being it's own rapidly increasing population and the degradation of the natural world (not just in Africa but worldwide) on which we all ultimately depend. A lot more food can be grown and it has resources the rest of the world can utilise, if the Africans do not use them themselves.

What worries me is your reliance on cold fusion as being the saviour of mankind. While I accept that it is a possibility since 1989 (Pons & Fleischmann), and many others have been working on the problem there is little evidence of any technology emerging as yet that can be commercialised yet alone being able to replace our current fossil fuelled economy.

Then you have the gall to turn on Lyndon and B. Lee Dinobvious and expect a detailled economic policy for an independent Wales when you are living some fanatasy of your own as to how the future will develop.

If cold fusion turns up, or extraction of dark energy is commercialised then maybe just maybe we can turn a dire worldwide situation around. Even if these technologies were available today, in a commercial form, it would still take 25-50 years or longer to replace our current investments. It would take 3 or 4 years to get each manufacturing plant up and running for a start. The conversion from coal to oil in transport took 100 years, I still remember diesels replacing steam in 1966! The NCB had steam engines at Cwm colliery near Ebbw Vale in 1985!

Currently your idea of growth is going to be impossible to maintain because the resources are not going to be available for EXPONENTIAL growth. Multi-national global capitalism relies on growth and the system simply does not work without it aka G Osbornes UK economy.

I went to the launch of "bridging Offa's Gap" and I fundamentally disagree with the conclusions and much of the data. We are a broad church. You asked what the party line was, so I told you. Luckily we like dissent in the ranks in Plaid. We are not the robots you find in Labour or the well-meaning but generally deluded Tories.
By the way, what great plans do the Conservatives, LibDems, Labour party or Ukip have for Wales?
They all seem rather quiet on the issue.

Jeremy
It is far from fantasist at all. I am not talking about Fleischmann and Pons chemistry which has never been replicated, I am talking about low energy collisions that can be found through targeted lasing (photons create high pressure at a nuclear level – my thesis was based on this type of technology and it is something I follow with great interest), for an overview read this ICF). Significant experiments have been conducted and progress is being made. As I said, I expect some form of fusion reaction taking place in a controlled environment within 50 years or so. So does the rest of the physics world.
 
Africa could be the bread basket of the world – it just needs the political will to do so. The more developed nations need to encourage this sort of development. However i disagree that the population can rise for ever. There will be a point where there are too many people and not enough food. That will result in the unfortunate but expected result of people starving to death which will maintain balance in the system. Harsh but it is the way nature will ensure stability.
 
 
B Lee Dingobvious
One thing I have learned is that never really to take note of anyone who is aligned to a political party as they tend to follow party dogma. I have asked questions that have been skirted and instead we have party rhetoric thrown back at us. It has been stated that Plaid have no economic policy at present. That really doesn’t instil confidence. No one can explain how the shortfall in public sector jobs is going to be bridged or how the £9bn or so shortfall in Barnett funding is going to be overcome. All we hear is tax rises, more borrowing (increasing the burden on tomorrows generation) and playing tit for tat with England over the use of resources. In all honesty the message I am hearing is that we don’t mind being beholden to Brussels as that won’t be London. The way you and Lyndon address the English – our fellow Britons - is nothing short of parochial and quite frankly insulting. I’d rather know 100 Englishmen than just 1 bigoted Welshman along the lines of you. No wonder people think Plaid are backward looking when you cannot even address the English without terse and irrational comments. The English did not rape and pillage Wales of its natural resources – the Butes did.
 
For reference my wife is English, my sons are half English, my sons are fluent in Welsh (aged 8, 6 and 4) and will be brought up to be tolerant of all peoples and to hate no one. I pity that anger and jealousy that you and Lyndon have. It shines through your posts quite clearly.

Jantra. Why do you equate my desire for independence with bigotry against the English? When did I say I had any dislike for English people?
This is why I said that you were a mentalist. I've answered your questions, told you that I disagree with my party on certain issues but you resort to a general attack on nationalism! I ended my last post with a question. What plans do the four large English parties have for Wales' economic success?
As to your personal and familial English heritage, mine are far more Anglo-Saxon than yours. I reckon that I've spent far longer living outside of Wales than you have too.
I don't have a problem with the English. It's the Uncle Toms like you that are holding us back, the traitors who hate Wales. The enemy within. As Wolfie Smith used to say.....Nah. That's too good for the likes of you.
Bankers and the other leeches that make money out of the money scam will get "justice" one day.
Ymlaen!

This 'mentalist' says you're a little fibber. My opinion that you hold the English in low regard is based on what you post, here are two examples....

you also appear to fail to understand my posts. i am not a self hating Welshman at all. I think Wales could be a great place to live and it could be self sufficient. I just don't think we have an economy at present that can provide that. Just because I am realistic and see Wales as being a bit of a basket case at present doesn't mean I don't hold aspirations that we can one day pay our own way within the union. You keep claiming Cardiff is a wealthy city but we have a terrible central square and a third world airport. Our wealth compared to say Bristol is because we receive significantly more public sector funding than Bristol. Take that away and we'd be a lot worse off than we are now.

Wales has 1 person in the public sector for every 3 in the private sector. The UK has a ratio of 1:4. That is why Wales is doing as well as it is. If you take that away - the English jobs subsidy - along with the Barnett subsidy, then Wales doesn't have an economy of note. We have a long way to go to get there. Given a lot of Welsh are against austerity, I can't see them being supportive of a generation of low living standards to support Plaids aims.

I also find it hypocritical that Plaid actively campaign against austerity yet would expect the very same level of cuts to living standards if they achieved their aims. But then we all understand politicians are only there for power and not to serve the people.

as for your last question I think you would be better off asking a party activist rather than me. I care not for party politics as it exists only to serve the interests of the party and not the people. I know what I want from life and at each election - assuming I vote - I will vote for the party that best represents my ideals.

I appreciate that Lyndon, wasn't having a pop just genuinely interested. All a bit insular from my point of view but never the less an interesting read.

Jantra - agree about our private sector, not all bad though! I've subscribed to an interesting magazine called Advances Wales and there are some really good ideas and research projects going on in SMEs, I just think we're missing a little something (capital? Expertise? confidence? not sure!) to take things to the next level. you can read it online through under innovation publications on Wales.com (under business), I'd recommend it if you're interested in science & Wales!

Victor

Thanks for the referral, I'll have a look now. I agree with you, I don't think we lack ideas or ability here in Wales, we just lack capital. Young timmy from Surrey has a trust fund he can fall back on when he is 25 - this helps him set up his own business. Young Dafydd doesn't have such a luxury thus making it an uneven playing field.

I've also said before that quite a few of our budding businessmen put cost before value. When putting together business plans and proposals it often pays to have expert advice guide you but I see it all too often in that some try and keep costs down and do things that are beyond their capability. There needs to be a complete paradigm shift in that way of thinking. In this world of capital rationing only the best plans get the funding.

In respect of the latter, WG can help by giving more targeted funding and speeding up the entire process which is far too slow, onerous and cumbersome at present. Business opportunities come and go and if WG are serious about supporting business then they need the processes in place that can react quickly to provide backing, expertise or political clout where necessary. Far too often Wales is let down by the slow moving civil service who seemingly cannot comprehend life where not all i's are dotted or t's are crossed.

Valid points - I particularly agree about a focus on cost. I've got a background in marketing and this something a lot of SMEs appear to struggle with! I've seen some terrible websites and very poor branding & content...not sure that's unique to Wales though, more SMEs in general!

Anyway I've gone off topic (politics), but hope you enjoy the magazine!

Do you understand the difference between England and the English? If you reply by saying that they are synonymous you will confirm my "mentalist" tag. I like the countryside, culture and people of England in general . I dislike their establishment, ruling class, foreign policy and attitude towards Wales.
You make so many bad assumptions in your arguments with people. So many errors. To sum up the exploitation of Wales as being "it was the Butes" is crass and childish.
Do you realise that you are a figure of fun? Everyone knows who you are on CCMB and many on this board too.
Ask yourself, who is going to hire an accountant who is mental and seems to spend all of his working day with one eye and one hand interacting with other argumentative people on the web?
Your reputation and bottom line must have suffered. I know two people who have recently set up businesses in Penarth, neither with much financial acumen. They both asked me if I knew a good local accountant. Your name didn't spring to mind.
God bless Jantra

you keep up the ad hominem jibes mr bleedingobvious. it says more about you than it does me.

if you are really interested to know who would employ an accountant such as me, why not pop into our penarth or hotwells office. you might be surprised at our client base. as for your lack of referral, we'll live with it. I'm sure we'll manage given business has been at least 30% growth year on year for the last 6 years.

NB are you saying the Butes were not the main beneficiaries of Wales' industrialisation? I reckon they were. perhaps you can enlighten me with who you think did better?

PS as you are aware I don't hide behind avatars on the wunderweb and i'm happy for people to know who I am. perhaps you would be so bold?

da boch chi

Of course the Butes weren't the main beneficiaries. They were major beneficiaries but the Crown for examplle has benefited far more.
If you think that all of the time you spend arguing on the internet benefits your business then thank god you will never have any input into economic policy in Wales.
I would say that letting your identity be known is a gigantic mistake if you are posting on an anonymous message board. Especially if you are an opininated, conceited troll. You never know the weirdos and stalkers you may attract.
My opinion is that you've been either naive or conceited to have advertised your identity.

the Crown? in what way?

for reference, the last English king was Henry VIII. since then the Kings of the UK have descended from the Scottish King James VI. We have not had an English King or Queen for nearly 500 years. so the Crown is Scottish if anything.


first you try and curtail me freedome of speech, now you are trying to tell me what I think. I think no such thing. What an absurd thing to say. What ever gave you that idea?


nonsense. I offer opinions and no more. I don't make libellous remarks. Perhaps you need to appreciate that we live in a world where free speech is allowed and that I am entitled to my opinion in the same way you are. By all means disagree with my opinion, but don't try and tell me to 'watch my back'. you're not going to intimidate me into stopping posting.


wrong again. i am only offering an opinion as I have said. I really have no issue with anyone knowing what my thoughts are. Why would I? They are hardly radical. They are just the thoughts of someone who is disgruntled with the entire political process and appreciate most politicians are self serving. you may disagree but I've not really seen any evidence of politicians having courage in their convictions like days of old (David Milliband excepted).

Jantra.

Where was the Queen born? Where were her father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great, great grandmother (who were all monarchs) born? Where did they all live?
England.

But of course in your alternative reality she is Scottish.

You are being a mentalist by suggesting that I am trying to intimidate you. I wrote that you were either naive or conceited to have revealed your identity on this forum or any other, such as CCMB.

David Milliband? Don't make me laugh. He is a typical UK establishment warmonger.

From the Daily Post 1/5/12:

LEANNE Wood has refused to take a pay rise since becoming Plaid Cymru leader, party officials have confirmed.
The 40-year-old is entitled to take home an annual salary of more than £77,000 since taking over from former chief Ieuan Wyn Jones in March.
But yesterday it emerged the former probation officer, a recent and vocal critic of a Welsh council boss’s near-six figure salary, has spurned an additional yearly payment of around £23,000 on top of her £53,000 basic pay.

The Royal family are hardly of English stock are they? Being born in a barn doesn’t make you a horse. Since Edward VI (not Henry VIII my bad!) it is a matter of historical record that the Royal family have been Scottish, Hannoverian, Dutch and German. It was only due to the Great War that made the Royal family change its name to something more anglicised.

I am at a loss why you think the Crown has done better than everyone else. I would have thought the Butes and Crawshays did better. I’d also say that despite Wales being used for its resources, so was the rest of the UK. It wasn’t as if the English came in and took only our resources, they used their own too! Not only that, but pre industrial revolution the Rhondda had a population of around 1,000. There were little or no towns or villages and infrastructure. So to say that the English only took is not exactly truthful. They certainly created an infrastructure that did not exist previously. I’m not trying to be contentious but Wales did not have the capital to exploit its natural resources at that time. We were an agrarian society with few wealthy people living here. It is hardly the ‘rape and pillage’ and ‘colonial extraction’ that has been portrayed in this thread. Wales (and Cardiff in particular) was rapidly industrialised and did very well from the capital that came to the country.

Regarding your continued ‘mentalist’ name calling. You have repeated requested I stop posting in this thread and you have made comment that I should be careful as my identity is known. Now you say you’re not doing any of those things. Your posts appear to be very confused at times.

Your last paragraph, I get it now – Plaid and everyone associated with it = good, everyone else = bad. Why didn’t you say that before. All hail Leanne wood on her meagre £53k salary. If she really wanted to show solidarity with her people she’d take the Welsh average of £23k or thereabouts. But she hasn’t. So it’s not all good is it.

Jantra. I suggest that you read some Welsh history and acquaint yourself with the English approach to Wales.

I call you a mentalist because you insist on arguing that black is white. Of course the Crown, or UK state has been the biggest beneficiary of Wales annexation. Remember Tryweryn?
If you asked the Queen as to her nationality, would she say Scottish or German?
No, she would say that she is English. Why don't you write to her and tell her that she is really Queen of Hanover and Scotland?

You wanted to know my identity and I've told you that I think that it would be foolish for me to do that. You do know that cyber-stalking can become stalking?

Yes Leanne is special. Only a blind person or someone with no heart would fail to acknowledge that.

I reckon the Queen would say she is British. You said the monarchy was the biggest recipient of Welsh resource. Now you are saying it is the UK state. It is this continued change of direction which makes it difficult for me to understand what your arguments actually are. It may have escaped your attention but Wales is also part of the UK. So whilst the beneficiary of the resource was the UK, so too was Wales. I mentioned the little if any infrastructure in the Valleys before industrialisation. It would still be a place of hills, sheep and few people if it wasn’t for outside capital.

I don’t want to know your identity. I said would you be so bold as you continually snipe from the sidelines and make things personal. By all means criticise my posts and my opinions. That is why I put them in the public domain. You are happy to dish out the abuse due to your anonymity but you won’t see such comments from me as it is pathetic and says an awful lot about your maturity levels and your tolerance of others opinions.

Leanne is certainly not special. She is merely a woman who leads a political party with ideals from the 19th century. You continually criticise the English as if what happened 100-150 year ago has any bearing on our lives today. It doesn’t. Wales is not specifically targeted by England – you’ll find that the UK is London centric and the North West has just as much beef with London as we do. They just don’t dress it up as colonialism or racism. That is just the way the UK has developed.

One final thing, I am Welsh, I am proud to be Welsh. I am also proud to be British. The four nations are much more than the sum of the parts. I use the term nations in its loosest sense because given the migration of the UK people between each nation over the past few hundred years I doubt you’ll find anyone who is truly of anglo-saxon/welsh/Scottish/irish stock. We are a British people where some of us – in my opinion – have insular and parochial attitudes towards the rest.

Jantra. Do you understand the difference between the Crown and the Monarchy? Google it as I can't be bothered to illuminate your ignorance.

Do you understand that English (UK) nationalism has been the most powerful in the world for the past 400 years? The largest empire, the most widespread language and institutions, the biggest profits and the most people subjugated and killed?

Do you know who the Kalahari bushmen and the native Tasmanians were?

Yes the infrastructure of Wales was developed, to transfer Iron, Steel, Coal and Slate to the ports and thence to other parts of the world. The electrification of those railway lines never happened. They are the only urban rail network in Europe that remains un-electrified. I wonder why? Less extensive networks were electrified half a century ago, Merseyrail and the Tyne/ Wear metro.
Wales has suffered economically as a result of this under-investment. Even you must be able to see that now.

I am glad that you are proud to be British. Funny that your magnanimity and fraternity doesn't extend to people from Swansea or Welsh rugby fans. You seem to he extremely bigoted in your opinions of those two blameless groups of fellow Britons.

Yes of course I do. The monarch is an individual whereas the crown is a body corporate. The crown is continual whereas the monarchy changes upon death or abdication. To all intents and purposes they are the same, the crown is the legal embodiment of the monarchy.


400 years? Are you sure? What about Portuguese and Spanish imperial ambition in the 16th century? Dutch in the 17th century. What about Russian or American in the past 100 years or so. Not forgetting France or Imperial Germany in the 18th and 19th century respectively. The UK had hegemony from around 1763 (Treaty of Paris) to maybe the 1920s when it was surpassed by the USA.

between 1914 and 1945 around 100m people were killed due to German imperialism and agression. Perhaps you can show me where the UKs imperialism has resulted in such high numbers killed? you will not be able to.

The UK has left a lasting legacy of democracy and freedom right across the globe. You may see imperialism as bad, but it modernised the world and gave the majority some lasting institutions for the greater good.

Stop talking tripe.

what about them? How are they relevant to this discussion? Are Plaid forward looking or forever looking to the past?


You really seem so hung up on shaving 2 minutes off the journey from Merthyr to Cardiff. Why? Do you think that will make Wales that much better in terms of productivity? Wales has had billions of objective 1 funding and has chosen to fritter it away on silly schemes. We only have ourselves to blame for lack of infrastructure. Stop looking for scapegoats and start looking at our inept AMs.


WTF are you on about now? My dislike of the jacks is for football and manifests itself on match day only. I know plenty of Jacks and they are like anyone else. There is no animosity from me regarding them. Ditto Welsh rugby fans. I find the media interpretation that we are all Max Boyce loving rugby nuts chanting oggy oggy oggy very tiresome but that doesn’t mean I have any ill feeling towards the game or its fans. You really don’t understand my comments regarding media overkill at all.

B. Lee Dingobvious: 'I have devoted my life to study'

Enough said - get out in the real world

These ideas that Wales would be sorted if independent. Its as if the people running the country don'y matter independence will bring prosperity - what utter bollox.

What about all the independent countries that pursue populist economic agendas, such as most of Africa, Argentina, Many parts of the middle east. These countries have a lot more resources but their people are by far worse of than Wales.

The jingoistic nonscence some of you spout reminds me of the daily mail and certain people complaining it is the immigrants fault they can't get a job even though they have sat on their arse for the last 15yrs through one of the biggest booms in uk history.

So independence inevitably results in a declining economy? Well done Carlos, you're really raising the tone of the debate.

And is it possible that you, Jantra and your ilk could engage with what we are actually saying, rather thasn inventing pathetic strawmen to knock down?

excuse me, I am debating the issues and raising questions which you are not answering. Wales has 1:3 public sector workers whereas the UK has 1:4. Independence would see 100k net jobs transferred back to the union. Unemployment would rise from 150k to 250k meaning a greater requirement for benefits and welfare but less paying in to the pot.

Then we have the obvious shortfall in Barnett funding of around £9bn. Considering Wales has a tax take of around £18bn this would see taxes having to rise by 50% across the board.

Wales would need to take on an immediate £60bn in debt plus around £150bn or so in public sector pension liabilities. Our cost of borrowing will be akin to Spain or Italy and we'll end up paying double or treble interest payments than what we do now. There is no way Wales will achieve anywhere near what the UK gets for its gilts.

So Independence would immediately bring additional unemployment, increased taxes and an increase in the cost of borrowing. This would see more taxes spent on financing debt and welfare and less on infrastructure and economic development.

Here we have Plaid advocating austerity and years of pain for independence but at the same time Leanne Wood marches against austerity emanating from Westminster. you couldn't make it up.

You have admitted Plaid has no economic policy and considering the high level figures quoted above I can see it is a circle that cannot be squared. Wales just isn't ready for independence. We need to increase productivity and output before we can even consider it a realistic aim.

At least if Wales was independent we could cut the public sector and adopt a more free market aproach. If all of Ireland had stayed in the UK it would be a shithole like Northern Ireland is.

Whenever you get specific, you start posting complete and utter rubbish, which is always gratifying.

25% of the Welsh workforce are in the public sector, as opposed to 21% UK wide:

http://wales.gov.uk/topics/statistics/headlines/economy2012/120301/?lang=en

Wales had the fastest growing private sector employment in the UK during the last decade.

100,000 jobs transferred out of Wales? Crap, prove it.

Wales would take on 5% of the national debt (£40 billion-ish) minus whatever assets we inherit which would be surplus to requirements (5% of Trident, 5% of two aircraft carriers) which we could sell back to the English.

Yes, there will obviously be a deficit, but your statement that our borrowing rates would be as expensive as Spain or Italy just demonstrates that you don't know how the bond market works.

According to the latest ONS statistics, there are only 138,000 central government employees in Wales, 70,000 of those work for NHS Wales.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-254053

100,000 jobs transferred, my arse.

Lyndon

your posts really do come across a tad childish. However, since maths is clearly not your strong point here you go:

1:3 means for every 1 public sector worker there are 3 private sector workers. That equates to 25:75 or 25% of the workforce.

1:4 means for every 1 public sector worker there are 4 private sector workers. That equates to 20:80 or 20% of the workforce. so thank you for agreeing with me.

now, here in Wales we have 1.5m or so employed of which 375k or so are currently in the public sector. that means 1.125m are in the private sector. Now lets assume Wales is independent and we end up with a UK ratio of 1:4. That would mean 1.125m private sector workers and 281k public sector workers. However we had 375k workers previously so we'd see a net reduction of 94k.

the UK debt is around 1.2trn of which 5% is 60bn not £40bn.

you ignore the public sector pension liability of £150bn as if it does not exist.

the jobs such as trident etc would be a saving for Wales I agree. However trident is measured in billions and Wales contribution would be hundreds of millions. On the flip side we would lose all of the RAF/Army bases based here and all the spend in the local economy.

Since Plaid are anti multinational will we see the likes of Tesco, EADS, Barclays, Lloyds, L&G Asda and so on - all with significant numbers of Welsh employees - be asked to leave or will they simply be taxed to the point they leave on their own? After all, Plaid want a co-operative economy based on localism - you cannot have that with such companies being based in Wales

Regarding your comment about the gilts markets. Stop making yourself look silly. You're taking to an ex trader.

Lyndon

What will our new currency be? How do you think it will fair on the worlds bourse? We will see investors dumping our currency causing inflation and redUce living standards? Will we have our own printing press or be reliant on the Germans to manage our interest rates? What happens if Germany experiences high inflation and the ecb raises interest rates? What then for Wales?

Lots of questions but no answers

Fair enough, you were right on the public sector ratios and national debt, I was wrong, I shouldn't post so soon after getting out of bed. On the other hand, your attempt to save your position on the "100K" job losses is ludicrous. Why wouldn't we increase private sector employment, not cut public sector? If economic activity levels were identical between Wales and England then the ratio of private:public sector employment would also fall into line.



Too right I do, because it's almost entirely covered by the current workforce. Adding up total pension commitments and attempting to portray them as debt is something the Tory twats have been using to talk down public sector pensions. Why not do the same for healthcare? What's the cost of providing womb-to-tomb heathcare for 80 years to 3 million people? Is that a "public liability" too?



Wales is notoriously neglected when it comes to defence spending. And we would actually have our own armed forces you know.



Ah, I knew you'd start talking complete bollocks in the end. Neither I, nor the other members and leadership of Plaid, are Marxist-Leninists, and we are perfectly happy to not just tolerate but positively encourage a mixed market economy. I suspect that an independent Wales would boost the presence of such companies, it would make it more likely they will set up separate branch operations here rather than running them from a "West of Britain" office in Bristol or Swindon.

I'm not sure where to start with this....

If Wales wanted to keep the 100k public sector jobs it would need to create 400k private sector jobs to keep the 1:4 ratio. The only problem is Wales has 150k unemployed so we would need 250k migrant workers. That isn't going to happen. If we split the 100k workers between the public and private sector then we would need 80k private sector jobs. Given we have 150k unemployed this would require halving unemployment. This isn't going to happen either.

The150bn pension liability is a debt in the same way your mortgage is a debt. You have an obligation to pay it. Let's say average life expectancy post retirement is 20 years then this will result in payments of 7.5bn per annum. Our tax receipts are only around 18bn at present and you think we can ignore payments that will make up almost half of what we collect. Perhaps you should have stayed in bed.

Our cost of borrowing will rise. We gave no credit history and a weak economy. There is no reason to think the markets will support our currency or our borrowing requirements.

You refer to us having our own armed forces. With eryr wen and a motto of fe godwn ni eto no doubt. The uk has around 300k active personnel, so wales would have 15k, less than a division across all three arms. Who do you expect to fight off with that - the isle of man?

Still you avoid the questions about currency, interest rate management and central banking. Three things which underpin a sustainable economy.

I am not saying you are a Marxist-Leninist (I think trot is a more appropriate term) but it has been said in this very thread that plaid are against multi national companies and are for local cooperatives and tax policies that favour Wales. Any multi national who are based here will be expropriating wealth out of wales unless they are taxed considerably. So how do you intend to ensure the wealth of the companies I have already referred to stays in Wales if not through taxation? If you tax them too highly they will up and leave, setting up 20 miles down the road but providing the same service to the same people.

So this eeeeediot Mancunian wannabee hates Jacks but loves the carrot crucnching tobacco selling slave trading, worzufifer Brizzolians.
you gotta vote plaid
if you got any pride

All for freedom is bear's head

Thank you for your erudite contribution. This freedom - does it involve not having a pot to piss in?