Plus Birmingham airports runway is being extended to 3,000 metres with work commencing next year.

But there are some enviromental reasons as to why this maybe a possibility:

1) Planes using Heathrow generally slot into a spiralling holding pattern over London and the SE and make the final approach over central London. This leaves you with a large noise footprint and the potential for a devestating accident ( or terrorism attack) over a heavily populated area. In Cardiff the approach can be largely over water limiting the impact (no pun intended).

2) In a world where there will be continuous pressure to reduce CO2 and costs then using a western gateway for All continental American flights reduces the flight times, fuel use (and hence CO2 emissions) and congestion in the air and on the ground.

3) The infrastructure improvements are very cheap compared to Boris island or any other developments around London. In the present climate that maybe an advantage.

Plus not all the passengers are from London and the SE and delays in and around London can be huge as are delays on the motorways around Birmingham. I have twice had to fly via Gatwick in the last 3 months and on both occassions had a 2 hr stationary delay on the M25.

Radio Four's "Any Questions" had a long disussion about Cardiff Airport last night. It's towards the end of the programme.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qgvj

Jeremy

I've seen you say the CO2 emissions are lower at CWL than say LHR on transatlantic flights. that is fair enough, but what about the additional CO2 emissions as you need to travel from CWL to Cardiff to Paddington? Are trains less polluting than aircraft?

Well they'd be electric, so yes. But if the trains are expensive nobody will use them. If a Brimingham - London HS2 actually gets built the prices would be sky high. People would take buses and Cardiff is closer to London by road

is there any evidence that electric trains are more fuel efficient than diesel?

Don't know, why don't you search online? I'd imagine so. It just depends on how the electricity thay they ise is generated. As we produce more electricity im Wales than we use I'd hazard a guess that they would be more efficent than a Boeing 747 and bigger, which is what the supposed aircraft would be

Yes, I'd imagine that there's lots probably.

Don't know the numbers, but common sense would point to electric being more efficient. Electric locomotives are lighter, they have fewer moving parts which leads to greater efficiency as there is less friction, they don't have to carry their own fuel - another weight reduction. As for the actual fuel used at the power station end - no idea, I'm sure there's research out there somewhere if you want to look for it.

And looking at it from an environmental perspective of course, you'd need to factor in aspects like the electricity grid being a 'fixed' delivery system whereas diesel needs to be delivered - which involves further carbon output through the transport used for that purpose. There's also the fact that electricity is produced through renewable and nuclear sources as well as fossil fuels, so only a proportion of the power used by an electric train will result in a carbon output - and one would hope that this equation will trend in favour of renewables over time. A diesel train is a diesel train for ever.

I know all of that DaiB, I was thinking more along the lines of electric rail infrastructure. diesel trains just need track whereas electric trains need power cables etc etc.

that wasn't really the point I was looking to make though. would knocking 150 miles off a flight save as much fuel as the equivalent train journey...

Well, first up, anyone arriving at LHR is going to be taking on onward journey somewhere. If that's in a Westerley direction then they would be effectively retracing their steps - so it's not as simple as saying that everyone who arrived at this theoretical Cardiff hub would be taking a train all the way to London.

As for the direct comparison, a train journey of 150 miles emits 12.9kg of carbon per person. The same journey by plane emits 41.4kg. Even allowing for the fact that the plane is descending for this distance and using a lot less power, that's a big difference. Especially when you consider that for at least half the day aircraft land at LHR from the East - further extending the distance, and trains rarely have to spend time circling the railway station waiting for a slot to land.

However; the scheduled trains would still make the full journey to LHR - irrespective of how many passengers may have disembarked along the way ... it's also possible that this might be a direct non-stop service...?

... but we might suppose that further 'carbon savings' would also ensue from shorter travel time to CWL for departees in S Wales / S W England (not that I have any statistics to back this up)

Fair point - although that brings us back to the direct comparison scenario in which the train is still considerably greener!

I think that alone is the most compelling argument


irrelevant really. the plane has to land at CWL or LHR, so it will have to descend regardless of where it lands. the plane will be flying for those extra 150 miles at full speed and cruise altitude before it begins its descent to LHR. for CWL, that is 150 miles earlier

Quote as many statistics as you wish, the fact still remains: Cardiff Airport is an isolated, dying, little-used dump!

Cardiff Airport has lost out to the low cost airlines.

IT will only survive with typical Welsh bucket and spade holidays: Mam, her Partner and three kids, Grandma, Grampy, the Neighbours, the Neighbours Son's(14) his girlfriend, her ex-boyfriend, and the nice chap who does Mam's hair.

They spend like there is no tomorrow, one big splash a year and must fly from Cardiff. Sadly!! this sort of trip is dying out. More savy travel lighter in ever sense and shop around. Discover Bristol is cheaper and they don't have to fly to Malaga every year.

Cardiff should re-invent itself. Come up with a deal with KLM/Air France (same company) where they have shuttle flights to AMS and CDG, enough per day to offer reasonable connections. Provide all the long haul check-in and security at Cardiff. i.e. directly compete with LHR
AMS/CDG would pretty much beet LHR in terms of destinations. I'm sure there is a market for this but they must let people know! see below.

eg tried a Cardiff to Tokyo flight, very good stop over times
Depart CWL 10:30 arrive AMS 12:50
Depart AMS 14:40 arrive NRT 09:55 (next day)

Depart NRT 11:55 arrive AMS 15:30
Depart AMS 16:30 arrive CWL 16:50

The return economy price £562

Tried the same dates from LHR this was £862 direct or £536 again via AMS
So, for £26 you get a return flight to AMS!
£26 would not even get you to London from Cardiff.

Aircraft have to land into the wind and as in the UK and over London the wind is generallly from the west the planes, even those approaching across the Atlantic, generally descend over central London. In addition when it is busy aircraft circle in stacking formations. Both these actions add mileage and time to the journeys and of course burn extra fuel.

In addition to aircraft emissions is the affect of water vapour from the aircraft and the contrails they form in the upper atmosphere. It is instructive to look at the affect of the 9/11 attack when all aircraft flights over the US were banned for 4 days. Ground level higher day time temperatures, lower night time temperatures and lower upper atmosphere temperatures. Water Vapour has a far greater immediate affect than CO2.

Cardiffs position helps marginally with both. It is not a game changer.

I suspect that in time we we move to a system of keeping flight distances to a minimum and that internal flights over shorter distances will be banned except were they go over water as moving large numers of people by electric railways has a lower impact especially if that energy is generated by renewable sources.

Oil is currently $105 per barrel and is largely discounted because of the ongoing recession in Europe. If economic growth returns then this cost will rise significantly & goodness knows what happens then to airline economics and the world ecenomy.

I do think that treating the UK, which is a small country, and the airports as a dispersed hub has some merit, especially as having twice spent hours recently stuck on the M25 after returning to a LOndon airport.

Totally agree with that concept! If the airlines marketed it better I am sure more people would fly from Cardiff

Air France should extend the Code-share agreement with FlyBe to cover the flights from Cardiff to Paris CDG.

Why can't we book Aer Lingus' North American code shares on the flights from Cardiff, is it because it is the regional airline? OK, you you can book the 3-4 US cities served by them from Dublin but they have code shares all over the US, Canada, the Caribbean etc. A missed opportunity especially as they have new(ish) planes at reasonable prices. Also you can do US Immigration in Ireland!

CARDIFF AIRPORT ON COURSE FOR LOWEST PASSENGER FIGURES IN 15 YEARS

Cardiff Airport is on course to record its lowest annual passenger numbers in 15 years, new figures show.

Travel experts and airport officials say they now expect to see a slow rise in fortunes for the airport, which, they said, had hit rock bottom after the loss of low-cost airline bmibaby 18 months ago.

Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) stats show just over 98,000 passengers flew from Cardiff in October, a figure 12% lower than that of October 2011.

Figures also show that passenger numbers for the past 12 months (October to October) are down by 19% on the previous year.

Passenger numbers in 2011 totalled 1.2 million, down from an all-time high of more than two million in 2007.

In the last 12-month period (October to October), 1.01 million passengers have used the airport

Air travel expert Martin Evans, a visiting fellow at the University of Glamorgan Business School, said: “Cardiff Airport is still very much feeling the aftermath of bmibaby’s exit, an airline which offered low cost flights and carried large passenger numbers.

“However, I expect passenger number figures to have reached their base in October and envisage that we will now see those numbers slowly moving upwards.

“Airports rely on attracting new airlines to boost their passenger numbers and Cardiff certainly has the capacity to do that.

“Their current Spanish partner, Vueling, among others have already announced an extended number of flights for next year and that should be reflected in future figures.

“I don’t expect things to get any worse.”

Cardiff’s fortunes have dipped considerably since 2007 when the airport reached an annual two million passenger number target for the first and only time in its history.

At the time government figures predicted that by 2030 more than eight million passengers would use the airport.

Yet numbers have in fact declined every year since.

In April 2011 low-cost airline bmibaby announced it was pulling out of Cardiff after nine years at the airport serving 10 destinations – including Alicante, Geneva and Palma.

Meanwhile, Cardiff’s main rival, Bristol Airport, has seen a 2.4% increase in passengers so far this year.

Steve Hodgetts, commercial director at Cardiff Airport, said there is light at the end of the tunnel.

“The published CAA statistics for October 2012 will show the trend established for the whole year so far and reflects the loss of the bmibaby operation at the end of 2011,” he said.


“The cumulative impact of the loss has shown throughout this year and would not be expected to change now.

“In this, Cardiff is not alone with East Midlands, Doncaster, Humberside, Prestwick and Liverpool all showing similar declines, attributable to loss of airlines, aircraft and routes.

“From November 2012 month on month comparisons will show that November 2012 has seen passenger growth over November 2011.”

This summer First Minister Carwyn Jones revealed plans to re-brand the airport in a bid to attract more passengers.

Following the launch of the Cardiff Airport Task Force, the First Minister announced a new direct route to Malaga from next summer by Spanish airline Vueling.

In October a new air route between Wales and Germany was also announced.

A Welsh Government spokesperson said: “It’s disappointing that less passengers used Cardiff Airport in October than during the same month last year.


The Welsh Government is committed to helping Cardiff Airport to realise its true potential as a modern, competitive, thriving and commercially successful airport.

“This is why the First Minister has established a Task Force to look at how we can help the airport to best maximise that potential.”

This week the airport also announced that Cardiff passengers will be able to reach more worldwide destinations via Amsterdam after KLM Royal Dutch Airlines announced an extension of its network in Holland which will provide connecting flights to Japan.

Mr Hodgetts said: “We are expecting that the work of the First Minster’s task force, the 2013 programme by Vueling, our successful charter programme particularly with Thomson and Thomas Cook and the continued connectivity offered by KLM, Flybe and Aer Arann will lead to the return of year on year growth at Cardiff Airport.”


Read more: Wales Online http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/12/13/cardiff-airport-on-course-for-lowest-passenger-figures-for-15-years-91466-32423303/#ixzz2FLXbn3Fb

I follow the CAA stats with interest each month, and for the first time in a long time the month current year vs month last year figures are showing an increase.

Cardiff airport has got in a right state, but I'm pretty confident the bottom has been hit.

I can't say that I've heard any major news about the WG designated aviation enterprise zone at St Athan since it was created*, but I did read this today about serious money going into serious aviation and engineering R&D projects across the bridge.

 UK aerospace industry given £2bn boost for future 


*The only MAJOR news that did emanate from St Athan was a promised 1000 jobs from Cardiffaviation but their website is still not really up and running yet. Does anyone know if this project is full steam ahead or not?

http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/tag/mod-st-athan/

There's various updates about CardiffAviation on the link above.

That news report about Filton / other sites in the UK must be a bit of a blow to the whole EZ idea for aviation-related industry at St Athan

That's £2 billion invested in the UK Aerospace industry, including Airbus at Broughton, which isn't "across the bridge".

Lyndon

I'm no expert but I don't think you're right. There will inevitably be ancilliary benefits later on down the line of this investment to Broughton, but remember that Broughton is a manufacturing plant. It is not a reasearch and development facility.

This major announcement today is essentially focussed on R&D, and hence will potentially benefit those areas such as Filton and Derby (where there are R&D facilities) to a hugely greater margin that it will impact upon manufacturing plants such as Broughton.

So, after all the predictions about the demise of Cardiff airport over the years on this forum, £52 million is what it cost to nationalise the airport. I don't envy the new management.

 SOLD 

in a way it is quite clever to set up via arms length as this allows the company to borrow to fund its growth. This means that de facto borrowing for WG paid back by profits from the airport. Fiscal responsibility via the backdoor.

however, without access to more finance this idea is dead in the water. whoever operates it needs to invest rather than just carry on as is.

I wonder how pax taxes will be changed - if at all - as a result of this

I think it's good news that David Rowe-Beddoe has been named to chair the Airport Board. He had a great track record in business and at the WDA. Presumably he wouldn't have accepted the challenge without assurances about investment.

Investment for the sake of it is not the answer to airports problems

More routes are needed which require more passengers
More passengers are needed which require more flights

It is a chicken and egg situation - use short term subsidies to attract some more airlines/routes - maximise publicity about new routes to attract paying customers - only when things are on the increase do you need to start investing in new facilities....although a propoer train connection would be a huge improvement.

A direct flight to Dubai or Abu Dhabi please ?

On a serious note I'm pleased about this. They should have done something about it years ago, hopefully it's a case of better late than never.

Only time will tell obviously. WAG haven't exactly got a good track record on the economy (even within their restricted abilities) so this is a good test for them. If they can convince some decent airlines to come here then that would be great. New routes need good marketing as well, reduce things like that stupid 1 pound charge to drop people off outside, have cheaper taxes and fees for the airlines, increase the frequency of the train and shuttle bus, run the train from Swansea right the way to Newport as well.

If passenger numbers increase, and only then, invest in the terminal facilities.

There's a very interesting and encouraging interview with David Rowe-Beddoe, the Airport's new chairman here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21964168

Highlights -

- The airport will be run by a private company owned by the Government but independent of it - not a quango. The company will draw up a business plan for approval by the Government.

- The current management will be retained but a new CEO will be announced "shortly"

- The Airport's problems are down to its business model. Its charges are too high. Attracting airlines is a matter of "simple economics" - although access and the customer experience also need to be improved.

- There is clear evidence from extensive research and advice that over a few years the Airport can regain the customer base that has been lost.

- The Airport currently breaks even and is not in dire financial straits but if the problem is not arrested now the Airport won't exist.

- Abertis ran the Airport in a way that was beneficial to them but not beneficial to the Airport or to Wales

I wonder what he's hinting at in that last point - were the company deliberately running the Airport down for tax or other accountancy reasons? DR-B is a sharp enough cookie to recognise those sort of tricks.

old boss put back in place:

Jon Horne was the airport's managing director between 2001-2007 before moving to other senior posts in the aviation industry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22039473

I was reading the other day about some grassroots football scheme being set up in Malaysia by Vincent tan and tony fernandes, cardiff and qprs respective chairmen.

Fernandes owns air Asia, who are an excellent airline and quite quickly expanding, I wonder if some strings could be pulled somewhere along the line to facilitate air Asia bringing some flights here?

First post in 3 years haha

Passengers drop below 1m dun dun dun

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22175540

Location, location, location. We might aswell bring back British Leyland. Rhoose has no future as a commercial airport.

I got back from five days in Barcelona yesterday. I used the Vueling service from rhoose and I saw posters promoting Wales in practically every metro station I went into.

Advertise in a country that is practically bankrupt with a 1/4 of the population unemployed, in a State that is €51 billion in debt. That'll really get the punters in. Nice one!

Your right but it's better than not bothering.

I've lived in Barcelona and I can tell you that the Catalans are not poor. Barcelona is Spain's richest city and it is good that Cardiff has the link as the Catalans are more likely to spend their money than the Andalus pdopld in the South. Spain is fucked because of overspending by the autonomous regions, Comunitat de Valencia being almost bankrupted by their spectacular Piutat de les Arts i les Ciències. Catalunya has over spent but not to the same degree as the other regions.

The City of Arts and Sciences is absolutely magnificent, and the city is a better looking place for it. However, it is absolutely profligate, and I shudder when I imagine the billions that were spent on it. Anyone know the price tag?

Cardiff airport to get a 500k facelift apparently.

Hopefully this is not the extent of their ambitions.

From the article is sounds like the plan is to put some scenic pictures of Wales around the terminal. Great plan that will bring in at least another 1m passengers, most probably within a month.

bristol must be shitting themselves.

£500k!! That'll just about buy enough magnolia paint to do the whole interior.

Just

Lol 500k, an absolute joke. That will do absolutely nothing and will end up being a complete waste of tax payers money.

Either throw 500k away or lay down 10 million for a new terminal and see the money come back...

Not sure why people are getting so hysterical about this, it’s a fairly small sum of money for some minor cosmetic improvements to the Arrivals hall to improve the first impression visitors get of Wales. I don’t see anyone anywhere suggesting that they think this is going to turn around the airport’s fortunes. According to the article this was planned before the deal to buy the airport was agreed anyway. Obviously it will be touted as the first in a package of improvements but I don’t think anyone is under the impression that it’s a major one.

They should destroy that airport they have (cardiff airport)now and build one on the south of junction 24 on the m4 over or next to the south wales main line with rail links so that tourists have rail links to london and cardiff and other major UK cities but yeah that's just a fantasy :( one can dream
I wouldn't know which way would be the best for the runway to be placed
but that's just my idea

Although I can't reveal in what capacity, I am quite heavily involved with this project and can offer a little bit of insight for anyone interested. 

Firstly, and as the press release states, this project was concieved long before the airport was purchased by WG. The aim of the £500k investment is to improve the way Wales is promoted to visitors arriving into the country. Airports around the world are generally considered a prime place to showcase what a country has to offer. Other than a few uninspiring poster sites and a dated tourist information, Cardiff Airport has been massively falling short in this regard. The project aims to make the inbound passenger journey - which currently involves walking through endless grey and souless corridors and stairwells - into a unique showcase of Wales' best assets. At this stage I can't say too much unfortunately, but some of the areas people will walk through will be really quite unique for an airport of this size. The money is not just being spent on a traditional print advertising campaign. It will be more than a few sceneic posters I can guarantee that!

The project aims to make an exciting and immediate improvement in peoples impressions of the country whilst at the same time making some physical improvements to the airport itself. It's so important to stress however, that none of this particular money is for rebuilding the airport, it's not for buying new seats or for a splash of magnolia. It certainly isn't for improving the transport issues or getting more flights! I don't work for WG, but now the airport has been bought outright I'd imagine these larger issues will be addressed separately, and hopefully with major investment!

The project will be an ongoing one, but a fair few things are starting to happen right now.

Simon, I can't guarantee you'll see 1 million more passengers in the next month, but you should at least see a few interesting things happening to improve the place and hopefully some wide eyed visitors impressed with Wales' creativity!

Just flew in today to CWL after a week on the Costa Dorada and for all the slating the airport gets, it does it's job, functionable, compact and easy to get around. I've been to worse. Would still be nice to have a flagship airport to be proud of rather than just one that will 'do'.

More news on the Western Gateway proposal http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/business/business-news/western-gateway-submit-latest-cardiff-3876405 I don't see this happening but £50m is a much better deal than the billions that Borris Island would cost. All we need now is Westminster and Cardiff Bay to see eye to eye on something, which is extremely unlikely.

Excerpt from article:

"At the conference on Monday First Minister Carwyn Jones said the airport "plays a crucial role" in Wales' economy".




We're doomed if that is the case!


DOOMED I tell you!!!

Passenger numbers have fallen from 2 million to under 1 million but I doubt anyone has noticed (apart from those directly linked with the airport). Can't be that important then surely?

Meanwhile in the real world, a wealth map of Wales and the UK has been produced that illustrates what needs to be fixed to get Cardiff airport going - personal wealth. The 1hr drive area for Cardiff is a lot worse off than the 1hr area for Bristol. Buying an airport for £50million won't fix that problem.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/richest-welsh-areas-monmouthshire-cardiff-3877085