Now I distinctly remember Carwyn the Caring telling us in the run up to the last WG elections that tax varying powers were not on the agenda nor were they part of the manifesto of Welsh Labour. U-turn. I am shocked!!!
god help us
Now what strikes me about all of this is that in one hand the lunatics running the asylum say they want fiscal responsibility, then on the other hand they say they want more funding from Westminster. Cake and eat it springs to mind.
Either they want responsibility for taxes only generated in Wales or they do not. i wish they would make their mind up. As always, they want a half way house in which we take wealth from the rest of the UK and bring it here into Wales to fund loony left wing policies that create ever further reliance on state handouts and English/Scottish enterprise.
Does anyone really beleive having a higher rate of income tax than in England would be good for the Welsh economy? I certainly do not. We already have issues getting the brightest talent to live and work in Wales, I can hardly see them flocking to Wales to set up businesses with higher rates of tax and any form of WLA to possibly contend with
As always with the loony left, it is all about raising taxes and not about raising standards of living. Yet despite all the talk of people in Wales that they are sick of Welsh Labour and their ineptitude they carry on regardless and will continue to carry on.
I can handle the despair, it is the hope that I cannot handle
A working party headed by an EX-AM instructed on behalf of Wales Governance Centre, IWA and Tomorrows Wales to submit evidence to the Silk Commission.
Nothing to do with the WG. You could submit your recommendations to the Silk Report as well - who knows you may already have - and it would be as connected to the WG as this one.
I find myself in the rather curious position of defending the WG which goes against the grain. But you seem to be jumping the gun all over the place. It's almost Pavlovic - mention WG in any capacity and immediately you are compelled to type 'incompetent', 'fiscally irresponsible ' errant nonsense', 'economic armageddon' etc etc repeat ad infinitum. It's like a form of Tourettes.
perhaps you missed this bit...
I have some empathy with the generality of this thread title ...
However, your post has focussed singularly on Welsh Labour?
Whilst I have no great love for that lot surely you must have now realised that there is no partisan high ground???
i.e. the Welsh Conservatives (or any other party) would likely have done just as crap a job - just with a different set of ineffective populist priorities and policies ...
To suggest that Welsh Labour or Carwyn the Caring doesn't want tax raising powers is wrong. This article is less than 3 weeks old.
In some ways I agree with you that WG have to undo years of neglect but it would be nice to know when it stops being the result of years of neglect and starts being a result of WGs incompetence. When exactly does that happen in your opinion?
I think that having the single biggest economic boom this nation (even the world) has seen removes any reliance on the fact that we have had neglect previously. Nations such as Poland and Czech republic had many more years of neglect under communism and yet somehow in approximately the same period of time have transformed their economies from being way behind Wales to at least on a par if not ahead.
So in my opinion the it no longer washes that we had years of neglect. The issue is that we have had years of Welsh Labour in charge of WG doing nothing except increasing our reliance on English and Scotland enterprise.
with respect to WG I have seen and heard it all before. Nothing changes, we have a confirmed marxist as our business minister, I am under no illusion that we'll somehow manage to find a former member of Greenpeace as the minister of the city regions. WG is a cabbage and will remain so as long as we have a single party state in Wales.
before I sign off, lets look at two facts:-
30 years ago Thatcher closed the mines and 20k South Wales men become unemployed
during 2000-2010 nearly 77k people in wales did not work whilst under a Labour government.
ignoring party ideology and only using common sense - which party has done more damage for Wales?
those facts are non seqiutur:
to make anything like a valid comparison you would need to provide the jobless figures over a 10 yr period of Thatcher's rule; or an instance where WG made more than 20,000 people unemployed in one fell swoop.
but I'm still interested as to how any other political party(ies) would have produced significant better economic results?
Alex Salmond is looking for tax raising powers - we all know that. As a compromise on the union he will probably get it - he has Nick clegg as an ally.
Carwyn Jones has stated openly (in the article) that if other home nations achieve more fiscal autonomy, then it is correct that WG also have the same level. He has said that at the present time income tax is not on the agenda (as he knows Wales budget will fall as a result) but if/when Scotland achieve it then WG will also want it.
remember that at the last election Carwyn Jones said they did not want tax varying powers. Now he is lobbying for indirect taxation powers. Next it will be direct taxation (but not before we get a bigger handout under Barnett).
Do you think the above is an incorrect assessment of what is actually happening in the UK at present?
I do not take articles on their own - I take the important bits and build up a picture over time.
finally, having independent organisations like IWA et al suggesting WG have tax raising powers is akin to giving the keys to the brewery to the local tramp.
What you are doing is asserting something is happening because you think it is happening. If you had said that you think that Carwyn Jones will do a u-turn on income tax because of the mood music coming from WG and other parts of the UK thats one thing. Its an opinion which may or may not be proved right in times to come.
But you asserted that the WG had done a u-turn which is not right (unless their submissions to the Silk Commission contain a u-turn which is doubtful as they have previously stated that Wales will not get income tax powers without a referendum). Thats different. You've substituted your opinion for fact.
Im confused is that article saying Wales should raise income tax or we should have the revenue from income tax handed to the WAG after its raised?
This type of thing would get people more interested in events down the bay people would take more notice of how utterly shit Welsh Labour have been at running Wales and maybe we would have a chance of getting rid of them no? I think Wales should power over corporation tax though there is bugger all of a private sector in Wales so makes no sense to be levying the same rate as somewhere like London.
Jantra you forgot the labour libdem coalition in the bay
As their masters in London are doing such a good job by bringing us into recession once again. Lib Dems and Conservatives will be dead in the water at the next election
At the next assembly election Labour will have been in power for 17 years I think people will start asking questions.
yet another damning statistic. now correct me if i am wrong but WG do have the mandate for economic development. So whilst the rest of the UK is beginning to see unemployment fall, here in Wales our figures continue to rise.
perhaps the usual WG/Welsh Labour/mad as a box of frogs leftist apologists can swerve this indicator and explain how in fact, WG and Welsh Labour are driving Wales forward?
Yet another reason to follow Guido Faukes' lead and take direct action. when will the simpleton's who vote Welsh Labour wake up and see what they are doing to Wales. As a nation are we really that politically incontinent that we prefer to vote on ideology rather than empiricial evidence? Apparently so.
wont find any complaints from me with what you said, welsh labour dont know anything they did nothing to correct the imbalance between the public and private sectors in wales during the good years. I saw a poll the other week on Wales online saying that if there an election labour would win a majority shows how uninformed people are. One of the main problems is we lack a proper print media in Wales compared to Scotland or even Northern Ireland the London papers dont print Welsh editions so no one knows what going on all we have is the Western Mail who would rather print stories about Caerphilly cheese being in American soldiers sandwiches or something.
Is this going to be our dedicated politics thread now?
I don't believe this
Surely not - a hospital is closing due to lack of funds in Wales. after all, we have Carwyn the Caring and his socialists who are protecting us from the cuts.
I just cannot believe that the Welsh NHS would be short of funds and services are being cut. I am shocked.
Im not sure what your point is here. That more money should be allocated to the NHS (at the expense of education, economy etc)?
That hospitals shouldn't be closed regardless of whether or not they are affordable? Or in fact fit for purpose?
Or good on the WG for grasping the nettle and taking difficult decisions even though they are bound to cause outrage amongst the local populace?
No axe to grind here but I genuinely don't know what you are trying to say (I know that it will be a criticism of the WG ultimately - and I'm assuming will include a reference to free prescriptions - but not sure where your point of attack is).
WG and Carwyn the Caring have said many times they are protecting Wales from the savage tories in Westminster. since our media won't hold WG to account, i thought I'd post it here just so the masses are aware that the aforementioned claim is in fact utter nonsense.
Under Welsh Labour we are falling further behind in terms of economic output, we have increased unemployment and services are being cut.
but we get free prescriptions so all is well
Just so long as I know.
Although hasn't David Cameron and various other Tories been castigating the WG for reducng the level of funding for the NHS? This has been going on a long time so hardly news surely? The WG would of course state that the NHS budget has gone down because of the reduction in the block grant.....
As matter of interst how much do the free prescriptions cost us per annum? And what % of the populace would still get free prescriptions under the old system? And has anyone done any form of analysis as to whether or not free prescriptions encourage people to go to the doctor and therefore improve health outcomes?
I am against free prescriptions in theory but I'd like to know the figures and I'd also like to know that the policy is under review to see if it is actually having a positive effect. Anyone know of any research out there?
As much as I am not a particular fan of WAG and it's eye watering expenditure every year and I will not defend any Labour government over the past 20 years there is a lot to be said that looking at the bigger picture WAG has very limited powers and ability to effect economic growth when the whole of the uk is still in recession. The unemployment figures have been distorted by the number of jobs created in London this year and lets not forget that that is because central government has seen fit to spend £9 billion the olympics so expect unemployment to at least flatline in Spet-Oct.
You said,'As a nation are we really that politically incontinent that we prefer to vote on ideology rather than empiricial evidence? Apparently so'.
Umm yes, there was nothing more politically incontinent and ideological than voting for a right wing tory government in the 80's and 90's that devestated the Welsh nation's ability to create wealth. Had heavey industry and mining been left to decline naturaly rather than killed off to reomove union power (which was necessary, but not in the way Thatcher did it)maybe Wales would have been able to develop a more business minded economy over time, rather that having to rely on public jobs to keep people in work.
Heath's government in the 1960s closed more mines in Wales than Thatchers government in the 1980s. By 1979 20k people worked in Wales' mines. In 1930 it was 270k or thereabouts.
but as a nation we shouldn't let facts get in the way of our political thinking and we should of course follow what daddy and granddaddy did and voted Labour without giving any thought to the consequences.
Can anyone seriously suggest that under Labour 1997-2010 and Welsh Labour 1999 - present that Wales is a better place to live? i wouldn't say so, i'd say in comparison to the rest of the UK we have gone backwards. the problem is some Welsh just don't want to move forwards
Carwyn was talking on radio Wales now a caller challenged him asking him why Wales was the poorest country in Europe ( I think western Europe is more correct and poorest in country in the UK ) then he deflected it by talking about "parts" of England that are poorer than Wales which is correct the North East of England I think is the only place poorer in the UK but thats not what he was originally asked, Welsh Labour are shameless
tax varying powers
I was reading the above article and was beginning to have hope that at long last, we have sensible people in Wales who appreciate the (lack of) capabilities of WG, however, I got to this bit and was instantly dismayed
I don't get you the quote says its best its not devolved then your going on to agree.
You appear to have missed my point, maybe I'm not as eloquent as yourself.
I was not pointing out which goverment closed more mines than the other and to be honest I am glad they have all but gone, mining is a pretty horrible way to earn a living.
My point was in reponse to your statement about voting ideologicaly and the fact that the tories are just as ideological as labour or every other political party that has got it's hands on power. Are you realy naive enough to believe that if tory was the dominant party in Wales we would be better off? I am yet to see any eveidence that any government has even had a single idea on how to run an economy. Politicans have never ever had a good track record on the economy be it in recent years or further back.
And no, the years of labour in power have done nothing for Wales and neither will a tory government.
Face it democracy is crap! but it's better than the alternative!!
the article states that with tax varying powers, WG would have to decrease public services elsewhere to fund the decrease in headline corporation tax rate. I really do struggle to see a Welsh labour government decreasing taxes. Labour are the party of high taxes, bureaucracy and waste. Why would Welsh Labour - who are further left, adopt any form of right wing business friendly policies?
It wasn't really a reply to you per se - more a frustration that we continually here that we cannot vote for the conservatives in Wales 'because of Thatcher', yet when the evidence is reviewed, it is clear that (i) it was a dying industry (ii) Heath's Labour closed far more mines and (iii) blairs/morgans
Labour oversaw 77k people never working in Wales in ten years.
Despite all of the evidence, some people are so ideologically opposed to the Conservatives and quite often its based on how their parents and grandparents voted. I am not suggesting for a second that a right/right of centre government in Wales would make any difference, but the thought of having Labour removed from power thus they would actually have to work to (i) get my vote and (ii) stay in power could improve Wales in a way we have not seen.
as it stands, wales is a de facto single party state - no matter how poorly it performs. This is due to individuals stating they could never vote Tory without actually giving much reason why that is. When the evidence is held up to scrutiny, Wales has suffered more at the hands of Labour than the Conservatives.
all I want for Wales is political competition - so politicians appreciate they have to deliver of face being removed. As it stands, Carwyn Jones doesn't have to do anything whatsoever. The Welsh electorate are gullbile enough to fall for the bilge that eminates from WG. If Wales fails it is the result of Westminster, if Wales succeeds it is the result of Cardiff. Consequently, Wales stagnates whilst our politicians carry on regardless.
Actually it wouldn't be such a bad idea to devolve coporation tax to Wales, Labour are incompetent,stupid and have little idea how the economy works but in their right mind would they raise corporation tax no way would they, they aren't that stupid the only thing they would do is cut it as there aint much of a private sector in Wales anyway so there would clear advantages to cutting the rate in Wales possibly being able to attract firms up the M4 from London. The only thing is it would involve a cut in the money Wales gets from Westminster meaning Labour would seriously have to cut the state back in Wales something they don't want the responsibility to do as they would piss off their union chums and they are clearly ideologically opposed to!
There is an element of labour wanting to stay pally with unions but after many years of a labour government in london that was openly hostile to unions I don't think they have as much power as the daily mail or union bosses like to think.
The simple fact of the mater is london and the south east is the driver for the uk economy, hence why I have to live and work here. London produces more tax revenue for the government than any other part of the uk, Wales will never have a big private sector the economics just don't work, London has the infrastructure and supporting population needed for the private sector. Devolution is a pathetic idea for Wales as you will never get private business to invest on a large scale. As far as I am concernd central government should move all but the very bare minimum of civil service/public jobs out of London and the south east to the areas of the uk that will never realisitcaly be able to support a large private economy. This would then free up even more of the london population to work in the private sector and thus create even more tax revenue for the government.
You are correct. I am the dullest
They don't have enough power to bring the country to a halt but they did decide the Labour leadership election anyway im more interested in what you said about the economy. You are right about London and the south east being the driver of the UK economy and its always going to be that due to certain factors that cant be changed like you mention infrastructure London has five airports include one that is the busiest for international passengers in the world ( heathrow ) also it has a high speed rail link to two major European capitals in Brussels and Paris, and a world class public transport system that includes the second largest subway in the world along with trams and light rail. And of course London is historically the most important financial centre a long side new york and it has the worlds 5th highest GDP for a city. So London is always going to dominate the UK but your conclusion that we shouldn't bother expanding the private sector outside of London is strange in my opinion we haven't even tried properly yet, successive UK government have lacked imagination in encouraging private sector growth outside London we have never tried what I have advocated which is to collect tax at more local level and drop it below the rate set by westminster for the UK in order to encourage businesses to set up outside London and I think it would work and until it is tried we can't discount business will always go where its cheaper and where they can keep most of their money in America many films are shot in Nevada instead of California because the taxes are lower. As for your idea about moving public sector out of London we have been doing that to some extent already the ONS in Newport the DVLA in Swansea I don't this has really helped those areas that much. Devolution has not brought the benefits we hoped mainly do to bad governance but also due to the fact the assembly doesn't have control over the levers that really influence the economy I understand it might seem strange to advocate more devolution as the answer to the failures of devolution but thats what I think we should try.
I like it.
You may very well have a point there, thinking laterally if you give WAG the powers to be a real government it would be sink or swim and then if they do sink the ship there is no passing the buck to Westminster. All parties would have to work for their votes as people would hold them directly responsible for what happens. Vote Yea on Devo-Max!!!
We'll have to disagree on private sector investment, I really believe there has been a lot of encouragement to drag business along the M4 there have been so many european grants and tax insentives for companies to set up and some have taken the option but realisticaly there is a limited number of jobs both private and public not to mention a very limited pot for infrastructure. Yes have a system that encourages companies to see the world outside of the M25 but also have an understanding that having the bulk of public services outside of London supports private business in places like Wales as well as being more cost efective to the government. lower rents for offices and lower wages for staff for a start.
the latest constitutional wrangling
aren't we all glad that in these times of dire economic need, our politicians in the Senedd and Westminster are focussing on the really big issues.
It would appear to me that all WG had to do was include a clause saying this bill is limited to devolved areas only. but they wouldn't do that, so now we have a situation whereby Westminster is taking the Senedd to the Supreme court.
why can't our politicians work together for the greater good, rather than continually protecting their own little fiefdoms.
Oh dear! Yet another example of politicians being unable to see outside of their pathetic little bubble. Very sad that they prove yet again they are not worth their over bloated salaries.
Politicians should just do less tax less, spend our money less and regulate less just leave us alone.
not Wales or Cardiff but a topical article nonetheless
Now I am a firm believer that public services do not need to be delivered by the public sector all the time: restaurants, buses, swimming pools, trains - all deliver services to the paying public. All can deliver a good quality cost effective service do well under private ownership. I'd rather this didn't turn into an ideological debate, but would welcome comments on whether or not this is an indicator that perhaps some of us in the UK are too ideologically opposed to the private sector vis a vis capitalism that we would prefer not to see such improvements to public services. The article cited does need to be treated with caution: after all it is only six months into a ten year contract. However, the first signs are encouraging - better patient satisfaction and better clinical outcomes. This has been the result of medical staff in management positions rather than bureaucrats - which is always good to see.
Unsurprisingly, the unions are trying to find anything they can to suggest all is not well, despite the evidence to the contrary. There are claims that staff morale is down and that their are impending job cuts. surely UNISON should appreciate the role of the public sector is to deliver public services and not to provide jobs. The only jobs that have been threatened to go are cleaning staff, with those responsibilities being taken on by clinical nursing staff on the wards - a bit like it used to be in the NHS years ago (which ironically is what a lot of unions claimed was unnecessary outsourcing in the first instance - penny and bun spring to mind).
I think this is a good test case and so far the bits that matter - patient care, satisfaction and clinical outcomes - are all showing signs of improving. long may it continue.
You appear to be wanting people to comment on the article you have posted but do not want it to be based on people's ideology. Not sure if that will happen!
If the article is to be believed, then fine you have a point. However you are always very critical of unions and their vested interest what about the media and it's vested interest.
I've given up now, the fact is that everyone who provides a public services is going to see their service and job handed over to the private sector, people will be paid less and receive a smaller pension as they do in the private sector as a whole. We are going in the direction of the lowest common denominator so what the hell as long as so called patient satisfaction is better f***k the staff!
Patient satisfaction! As long as you put the right questions out you'll get the answers you want back. Lies, damn lies and statistics, one thinks.
You don't have to go private to improve a service, there are many examples of good service in the public sector and many examples of bad service in the private sector.
Good lord even the Tories coming up with silly ideas http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/08/10/national-assembly-should-be-called-welsh-parliament-says-tory-leader-91466-31586316/
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