Ray White

Possibly there may be a positive side to tightening up the rules as far as hot rods - I call them hybrids - are concerned. For too long many have been masquerading, if not as historic vehicles, then at least "old" cars. Apart from the VHRA and others who are at pains to encompass original parts where they can, the majority of these cars are effectively new builds. As such, I would have thought the IVA specs would go some way to ensuring the safety of such vehicles. In many cases, the power to weight ratio would appear to be quite dangerous. That said, there is no evidence, as far as I can tell, that hot rods are any more likely to be involved in accidents than conventional old cars. I am just trying to find a positive angle to this fiasco but it's not easy!

Location: Flatlands of Norfolk

Ray White

Apart from the VHRA and others who are at pains to encompass original parts where they can, the majority of these cars are effectively new builds. As such, I would have thought the IVA specs would go some way to ensuring the safety of such vehicles. In many cases, the power to weight ratio would appear to be quite dangerous.

Location: Kent, UK

Thank you Stuart. An education.

Location: Derby

I understand from an owner friend that there are now almost twice as many Bugatti type 35s in existence than were ever made by Bugatti...

Location: Ripon

Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T

I think the same goes for Rileys, there are more Blooklands 9s, Imps, MPH's and Sprites than were ever made!

I amuse myself identifying fakes at all sorts of events and I'm amazed, taking Rileys as just one example how many Monacos, Kestrels and Falcons are masquerading as sports models and mysteriously some of these cars are supposed to have history... I think this sabre rattling from the DVLA is a bit of a wake up call for the old car movement and clearly demonstrates that we've had an easy ride compared to many other countries and the skulduggery of a few looks like it could spoil it for all of us.

Location: Near Bicester.

Careful chaps, They may be fakes as such, but many are based on an original chassis and running gear. As many manufactures of the time sold rolling chassis's the customer had a choice as to which body went onto the chassis,remember that company's like Rolls-Royce only sold rolling chassis's at one time. The choice of body design was down to the customer and many of these cars went on to be re bodied over the years, I owned a 1925 RR 20 HP it was sold as a rolling chassis bodied as a limousine, 11 years later it was re bodied as a 1936 drop head coupé by the Southern Motor Company who sold cars as replica Rolls-Royces the coupé body was destroyed in an accident and I had a copy of it made,This sort of thing has been going on for years with no problems, so putting an Ulster body on a Chummy chassis and doing a few modifications to the engine and suspension should not in fact be a problem for the DVLA, even a pile of bits dragged out of a barn an reassembled as a car should not be a problem if they can be identified as mainly original components.
The problem we and the DVLA have is that vehicles are being made up from mainly reproduction spare parts and being passed of by people who should know better as original and then being registered as such. This is such a grey area, and it would appear that all old cars will be tarred with the same brush. Sensible guide lines need to be draw up by clubs and the DVLA to cover such situations. With the system we currently have it is possible to build a reproduction modern car from spare or replacement parts as it will pass the current IVA test, what is needed is an age related IVA test like we had with the old MOT tests to accommodate older, rebuilt, replica, or modified cars specifications and originality. The matter of Q plates and taxation can them be determined, the important thing is that the car is on the road and usable, if after spending hundreds of hours and thousands of pounds building a replica or special a Q plate and a couple of hundred quid a year road tax is rather irrelevant.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Spot on Phil, there are replicas, rebodies and those cars with a genuine history and it's important that those lines don't become blurred.

Location: Near Bicester.

I agree. Phil, that seems to sum it up nicely.

I just hope that the fun element is not lost. There seems to be little point in a hobby if all the fun has been drained out of it. I get enjoyment from fettling with my old cars. Others will like to see if they can enhance the performance of their specials. My hope is that we will continue to be free to use our cars as we always have and carry on having fun with them.

Location: Derby

Any news from the meeting?

Location: East Sussex

Hi all there is an interesting article in Octane magazine October 2015 page 20-22. They asked DVLA some specific questions most have been covered elsewhere but worth reading if your in the newsagents.

Location: Dorset

Does anyone know if there has been a conclusion from the meeting on Wednesday?

My Parents got home from holiday on Sunday, to find a letter from DVLA saying that he did not have a place at the meeting, to say he is disschuffed would be an understatement! He responded on the day that the invitation arrived by first class post, makes you wonder exactly who did get in???

Stuart.

My guess is that with the sheer number of marque specific motor clubs out there, they have taken a broad selection, from bubble cars to Bugattis, Austins to AECs in an effort to cover as many as they can.

Location: Near Bicester.

Surprise there is no news from people who attended the meeting on behalf of the various Austin Clubs, strange complete silence

Location: East Sussex

Location: Dorset

We may have to wait for newsletter number 2015 /5 to be published by FBHVC perhaps.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Looking at the FBHVC website newsletter archive this could be early October.
Dave.

Location: Somewhere in the Northern Powerhouse

Location: East Sussex

Well here's a link for you as to how the meeting went from our man with the VHRA.

http://www.vhra.co.uk/VHRA/News/Entries/2015/9/27_DVLA_Historic_Vehicle_Event.html

Location: Flatlands of Norfolk

Link:
http://www.vhra.co.uk/VHRA/News/Entries/2015/9/27_DVLA_Historic_Vehicle_Event.html

The FBHVC Newsletter 2015 issue 4 gives much background also.

Based on the regualr meetings between the DVLA and the FBHVC on This statement particularly interested me.

''On the thorny subject of replacement bodies DVLA explained
that, although they fully understand that the traditional
coach built wooden framed body has a finite life which is
undoubtedly shorter than that of the metal components
of the chassis etc and that as such replacement bodies are
unavoidable, within the rules to which they have to work
a major change of body style is not acceptable. A newly
built body true to the original should not be a problem''.

Clearly not what special builders want to hear, but I think it is good news in terms of the historic side of things.

Location: Derby

There seems to be many diverse interpretations of the DVLA rules. Would it be a good idea for the DVLA to give examples of typical/various vehicles awaiting new registration and whether these vehicles would or would not require an IVA examination and similarly if these vehicles would be issued with a "Q" plate or whatever solution there is. Currently I cannot make sense of the whole issue, except that on reading the 65 page notes on IVA has hardly any relevance to an 80 odd year old car.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

we went in confused and we are now out and extremely confused

Location: East Sussex

Vintage Hot Rod Association write up of the meeting.

Location: United Kingdom

Thanks Austin - that is pretty clear.

Does anyone know where this leaves special building for road use? I’ve been offered another short chassis which I need as much as a hole in the head but my brother is quite keen on building a special.

Tom

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

VSCC Response - see last paragraph about specials.

http://www.vscc.co.uk/page/news?newsItemID=615

Peter

Mmmh, that's a worry, not only does that indicate that virtually every Ulster style special witha body under 25 years old will come under scrutiny but also rebodied cars that remain true to the original.

As Ruairidh has just reminded me, that will certainly effect those applying for a registration number, existing cars, should be okay.

Nevertheless, I still think there's more work to be done!

Location: Near Bicester.

In effect this will rule out specials without registration docs unless there is a change of policy.
Having put two cars through SVA which is LESS stringent than IVA and MSVA my humble opinion is that NO Austin 7 could pass without serious modification to contemporary standards. This conformity would totally remove any authenticity from a pre-war car and seems designed to prevent restoration of old vehicles.

That is a much more helpfull report than the ratrod one.

let us hope the DVLA see sence with respect to replacement bodies.

However the days of building a car from a ruck or parts, bodying it with whatever is wanted and applying for an age related plate is gone.

What is obvious is that the DVLA consider that the routes discussed are for Historic Vehicles, modify it far enough from what is a very woolley line and you will loose that status

Bad news for all special builders. Anyone like to join the Ex Austin Special Builders Garden Appreciation Society?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Yes Dave I might have to join. Very depressing reading indeed having recently embarked on building a special from parts. I certainly do not intend to stop the build, and we can only hope that with the assistance of our clubs progress can be made.

I don't like to see anyone treated unfairly but not being involved with special building ( rather like the DVLA officials who have to make judgements about such things) if one is building a "special" is it not possible to meet the requirements?

Please be gentle with me; I am only asking the same question that the DVLA will be asking.

I don't make the rules!

Location: Derby

Thanks Ray. Well I was under the impression that by keeping the chassis & running gear original I was safe under the old 8 point rule. (I have endeavoured to keep all the components as close as possible to the chassis date). The problem will be adding a sports body less than 25 years old, then having to put it through an IVA test. I’m sure I’m not the only one very frustrated with this situation.

If a four wheeler weighs less than 350kg and has less than 12 HP it can go through MSVA as a "heavy quad" but I think an A7 would exceed that weight. IVA regulations are available on the DVLA you gov site
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval
but the basics are radius related , seat belt mountings, chassis members,collapsible steering columns, glass,mirror, lens markings,fuel lines, braking efficiency etc. any of which will be difficult to comply with. There is a lot more than the above and IMHO they would change the car so much as to remove its personality and it would no longer be an Austin 7. Of course it would be possible to undo all the "specially for inspection" stuff but that would invalidate the insurance.
I don't want to be a downer but my guess is that IVA would be so difficult and expensive as to make it beyond the bounds of reasonable achievability.

And not to mention grinding off the original chassis number to replace it with a 16 digit VIN number!

Many thanks, Gentlemen. I had not realised that the regulations would change the nature of the car so much.

Does this open up a market for "aged" replica bodies?

Location: Derby

How many businesses are going to close? How many people will lose their jobs? I know of one well-known bodybuilder who told me that since this situation reared its ugly head his phone has stopped ringing. Many home built special builders went on to run successful businesses based on their skills. Colin Chapman, John Haynes - the list goes on.

Location: Inside the M25

Thank you for the link Peter.
Well that's a real kick in the teeth, I wouldn't be too worried about running on a Q plate, if the car is built from bits and has a 2015 body I can kind of see the sense, if a Q allows you to at least insure and drive your car. However to then make what is basically a 1930 car try to jump modern hoops makes it a no go. A real shame that this might halt a long history of special building. Guess I shouldn't be surprised, it's not the first time things have been wrecked for the many by the actions of the few.

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

Yes Tom, I don't care about the number on the car, but I do want it to be as much A7 as possible. If money would have allowed a 'Nippy with log book' restoration would have been my choice. I would be interested to know if any special builders have managed to get an age related registration on a 'parts' built project in the last 18 months???

The requirement for an IVA to go with the Q plate is the bugbear. We can only hope that the FBHVC can prevail upon DVLA to see sense andr relent on the IVA requirement. If not we will lose a multi- million pound industry with the loss of skills that that entails.
The trouble with common sense is that it's a rare commodity.

Duncan I couldn't agree with you more, in fact I think we should get the OED to change it to uncommon sense as it is definitely no longer common!

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

There appears to be slightly different comments from the Hot Rod feedback and the VSCC feedback, not saying either is right or wrong but I suppose we need to wait for the full DVLA statement if they issue one. The VSCC appear to indicate that DVLA will review the situation re prewar cars with new bodies which is a bit of hope. Putting aside specials it appears you can not find a chummy chassis and rebuild with a new chummy body which can't be right.

I hope those that can in the clubs will lobby DVLA and get some sense to prevail, or is it a case that there needs to be more of a general people power lobbying? As others have said the government will lose out in the end through loss of income through us spending money on old cars and the kit car industry.

Location: Dorset