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Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Too many regulations, too many jobsworths.

Location: The Centre of the Universe

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Phil Kingdom

The thing that does not get mentioned anywhere is that an old or historic vehicle may pollute the air more than a modern but when you take into account the pollution caused by manufacturing,shipping, scrapping and recycling several new cars to replace that vehicle over the years the older vehicle becomes quite environmentally friendly.


Not sure that's true.

What comes out is directly related to what goes in, lets say an A7 does 25 mpg, that's still better than some modern cars, (I just looked up Range Rover for instance - official MPG for the petrol version is 20.5mpg!)

Location: Buxted

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Austin Harris



What comes out is directly related to what goes in, lets say an A7 does 25 mpg, that's still better than some modern cars, (I just looked up Range Rover for instance - official MPG for the petrol version is 20.5mpg!)


In Their dreams A 4.6 P38 Range Rover will get 15 MPG if you are lucky. That's why many have converted to LPG.

The Mk111 is even worse. It's even bigger and heavier than earlier versions.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

In my capacity as VC of the A7CA and Chair of the PWA7C, I think a brief response to the comments made by Dave Wortley and Stephen Voller is in order.

We agree, and sympathise with, many of these views and comments; our Committees being as concerned as everyone is and trying our best to liaise and lobby the necessary bodies. I personally have communicated with the two MPs mentioned previously but was directed back to the DVLA. As you are aware I published the latest " edict " from the DVLA recently but have heard nothing more officially, despite trying. There are many comments floating about, many of which I would describe as spurious, and I am loathe to pass these on. Our Pre War Authentication Officer, Peter Rowlands, is working hard but is very frustrated and embarrassed at having to be the bearer of bad news to our members. We are seeing changes in the DVLA but these only seem to be increased questions and paperwork.
The Association did its best to attend the meeting at Swansea last year as the official body representing the thousands of owners, but were not selected. The whole situation seems to have stalled but we are being proactive as far as we can and monitoring the whole sorry saga constantly. Personally, and maybe pessimistically, I think our Masters will have other things on their minds leading up to the referendum, to bother about us and our plight!

Chris Garner

Location: Melton Mowbray

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris,
Thanks for putting forward your thoughts. We special builders are going to be in limbo for a while yet possibly.
Cheers,
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Chris,
May I also thank you for your response.
I do appreciate that club officials are doing what they can and that they are having an embarrassing time dealing with faceless officialdom.
I don't think the DVLA are giving club officials the level of respect that they deserve.

If you've managed to wade through this whole thread you will have seen that I worked for a government QUANGO in the NHS and have seen how these things work behind the scenes.

I think this means I'm taking the whole situation rather personally as I've seen how a major arms length government body can ride roughshod over those they seek to legislate over, in my then employers case it was NHS dentists and all in the name of cutting costs.

Whilst I agree that Whitehall will be busy with the In/Out vote, the DVLA will still be pushing on with their agenda regardless, as this is how these departments work.

My Austin 2 seater doesn't have a registration as lack of funds, life, health and a mortgage got in the way and it's only since last October that I was able to resume working on my dream car.
It was only then that I discovered the current debacle.

I partially console myself that if the worst comes to the worst, because the project was so long term (beginning 1983) I can recoup most of my outlays by selling it off piecemeal, but that will still leave my goal of restoration and driving the finished vehicle unfulfilled - but such is life.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Make no mistake, our historic vehicle world is being lured onto the rocks.

In 2013, The Charter of Turin was ratified by a bunch of people most of us have never heard of and the FBHVC hailed this as a triumph of good sense.
Well, as Senior Vice-President of FIVA at the time and latterly, Head of the FIA’s Commission Historique Internationale Legislation Working Party happened to be no other than David Whale, current Chairman of the FBHVC, the Federation’s rather nebulous position in the present crisis comes as no surprise.
David Whale’s ‘holistic’ approach to the ‘wider ranging global status of historic vehicles’ (in other words a ‘fits-all’ solution) dovetails neatly with the DVLA's new position and is precisely what the historic vehicle movement in this country doesn’t need.

We are being hood-winked by the FBHVC; their support for the Charter of Turin and its restrictive formula for historic vehicles is unequivocal and their complaint about the DVLA’s ‘obsession with originality’ is a complete smoke-screen.

Follow the wrecker’s lights at your peril.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I understand that if the E.U. referendum results in Britain leaving, it will take a minimum of two years - and probably a lot longer - for this country to extract itself from the numerous treaties that we are signed up to. Plenty of time for the DVLA to adopt the E.U. formula as a permanent policy.

...or am I being pessimistic again?

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As there seems to be quite wide variations in the regulations in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland I cannot see how anyone can believe we are to be subjected to "EU rules". If we are, how come no EU member country has the same identical regulations rather than individual nations doing their own thing based on their historic national traffic regulations?
It would appear that much of this "discussion" forms part of the constant drip-feed of poison as has been stock "straight bananas, ban 8 year-olds from inflating balloons " propaganda from the likes of the Daily Mail.
If people are prepared to make their decisions on such an ill-informed basis, heaven help us!

Location: Ripon

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Re the issue with DVLA has anyone / club thought of raising an e petition to have the issue raised in the Westminster it appears to be a straight forward process, 6 signatures to start the process get over 100,000 and it should be debated. Clearly there would need to be a clear issue and resolution required and not just a moan against DVLA. More info in the link below.

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/sign-a-petition/e-petitions/

Just a though as I am sure there are enough people to sign the petition and we may get some resolution before we get bogged down in the EU debate.

Location: Dorset

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Duncan Grimmond
As there seems to be quite wide variations in the regulations in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland I cannot see how anyone can believe we are to be subjected to "EU rules". If we are, how come no EU member country has the same identical regulations rather than individual nations doing their own thing based on their historic national traffic regulations?
It would appear that much of this "discussion" forms part of the constant drip-feed of poison as has been stock "straight bananas, ban 8 year-olds from inflating balloons " propaganda from the likes of the Daily Mail.
If people are prepared to make their decisions on such an ill-informed basis, heaven help us!


The details of what is proposed are to be found in the Charter of Turin. Goodness knows what our Government has signed us up to? It is the ambition of the E.U. to "harmonise" regulations throughout Europe. The question that really matters if we are to be subjected to E.U. legislation is can it be a "directive" rather than a "regulation. At least our Government would have some say over the implementation of a directive.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The government’s ‘gold-plating’ of an EU directive is no guarantee of its palatability.

The discussion about the DVLA’s new rules – or new interpretation of the old rules – is connected to the EU only in that Brussels is blamed generally for everything we care to disagree with.
The root of the problem is FIVA, its Charter of Turin and the lack of foresight of those (the FBHVC) who failed to perceive (or were pleased to ignore) the problems it would spawn for the historic and classic vehicle movement in the UK with its adoption even in part, by the DVLA.
There is no doubt that the DVLA have adopted the Charter’s definition of an historic vehicle and there is absolutely no doubt about the FBHVC’s support for the DVLA’s new regime and the Charter’s malignant content.

I would argue that Special builders have less interest in (but no less respect for) the historic status of their creations than owners of production vehicles and would likely be quite happy to forego the privileges associated with conventionally bodied historic vehicles; road tax is not a huge imposition and an MoT test, many regard as a must in any case. The DVLA have overlooked any provision for the accommodation of this class of vehicle and this wilful cultural cleansing, promoted by the insidious Charter of Turin must not go unchallenged.

There was a particularly good letter written by the late Stanley Mann in praise of Dr Clare Hay’s erudite comments on the originality of vintage Bentleys and which might be usefully applied to all vehicles that achieve Historic status. Hay concludes, ‘As far as Bentley Motors were concerned, the identity of a car is not straightforwardly a function of the chassis frame or any other major component. It is a function of continuity. Even if over time every component on a Bentley has been changed, provided it has existed throughout as a single identifiable entity it remains the original’.

Such good sense seems in very short supply.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ref a Government petition, would somebody like to come up with appropriate wording?
All I can come up with at the moment is :-

''We request the Government to direct the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to treat the registering of Historic vehicles that were originally built with a separate chassis (ie non unitary construction / non monocoque) that have been subsequently fitted with replacement bodywork due to the irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork, on an equal basis to vehicles which have still retained there original bodywork when issuing or reissuing age related registration numbers, thereby recognizing and confirming the re-registered vehicles historic status.''

Please feel free to offer alternatives.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

My only suggestion would be to use a site like Change.org in preference to the Government's site because there's too many 'maybe's' in the description - an excuse to kick everything into the long grass if it's not a Cinderella issue.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ref a Government petition, would somebody like to come up with appropriate wording?
All I can come up with at the moment is -slightly re-worded :-

''We request the Government to direct the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to treat the registering of Historic vehicles originally built with a separate chassis (ie non unitary construction / non monocoque)and subsequently fitted with replacement bodywork due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork, on an equal basis to vehicles still retaining the original bodywork when issuing or reissuing age related registration numbers, thereby recognizing and confirming the re-registered vehicles historic status.''

Please feel free to offer alternative wording - don't see much in the way of maybe's above?
-not totally convinced on Change.org - but am having a look.
Q:showing my ignorance here but:- how does the Government know you've put a petition on Change.Org.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Sorry Steve, I meant that there are too many ‘maybe’s’ in the government’s petition site.
I'm probably a little sceptical but, if you start a petition on a government run site, who is controlling it?

And not to pour cold water on your idea, after thinking about starting one myself, I considered the following:

1. In 2009 there were approximately 178,000 registered classic and historic vehicles in the UK.

2. In 2009 approximately 68,000 were presented for an MoT test.

3. In response to the government’s consultation on the lifting of the requirement for pre-1960 vehicles to be tested, there were 447 responses (0.66% of those presented, 0.25% of the total!).

I realise that some of these responses were collective but I would consider the show of hands pathetic considering that it was clearly an act of blatant chicanery (the removal of officially sanctioned roadworthiness) paving the way for the sort of problems we’re experiencing at the moment.

In other words, I concluded that I couldn’t rely on the support of enough people to get a petition off the ground. Apathy and the fact that most people wouldn’t put their heads above the parapet or say boo to a goose, are our biggest enemies and we hand these most effective weapons to the DVLA on a plate.
I think there’s no substitute for our individual efforts and that’s why I continue to write letters to people who I hope can make a difference if pushed hard enough.
As I say, I may be completely wrong.

Sir Greg Knight’s closing sentence in his last reply was ‘I’m doing what I can!’ The exclamation mark suggests that I’m hitting the spot :)
Good. But not yet good enough.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve

I have a few concerns about how such a petition might be interpreted later on (assuming successful number of signatories!).

Mainly that "due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork" could place a burden on the applicant that the body was beyond economical repair. The owner of a barn find car missing a body altogether would struggle to prove that the body was not simply removed for the purpose of building a replica sports.

Secondly "equal basis" is concerning because this may still cause problems for special builders. Even if the body were permitted as a replica, the rest of the components are from a number of different cars and would still fall into the kit car section of the rules.

I would like to see an extension of the existing rules. Replacement bodies are already permitted from the original manufacturer. If this were extended to "marque experts" then those professionals such as Roach, Yates, etc... would be able to supply bodies for replacement purposes.

The problem with my proposal is that the home special builder doesn't really meet the requirements for a marque expert - and worse, what if there is no expert for your make of car.

I'm not sure that there is a way of satisfying everybody.

Peter

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Is not the special builder, be they professional or home, part of the culture of the Austin 7 that has is existed since the very early days and certainly more than 40 years? I thought the historic vehicle movement was all about protecting the living culture, which includes the special, of historical vehicles and allowing them to continue to be maintained and driven on public roads not withstanding the modern regulations that might exclude them if applied.

If individuals are to lobby then who do they direct their representations to? Just who are the key stakeholders, how can they be contacted, and what are their objectives and how can they be influenced?

I am not a special builder just a RP owner who wants to be able to continue driving on the roads without undue restriction, but I also do think the special side of A7s is worth sticking up for.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thank you gentlemen,
It just goes to show that 'getting it right' is crucial and what is stated and how it is phrased is of great import.
I wouldn't want for example to disenfranchise those who create their own bodywork which is part of the great british tradition of special building.

A friend of mine Ernie Randall who is now sadly too old to actively take part, was building his own bodies from the early 1950's through to the mid to late 1990's.
They were all 2 seaters as far as I can recall, none were highly tuned as his enjoyment was rebuilding standard mechanics with the creative element of thinking up and building the body.

He said to me a good few years ago, ''I think I've had the best days of the old car world''.

Reluctantly I feel he may be right but I sincerely hope we haven't seen the end of them.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Does any one remember the Dave Gorman show, he did a piece on government petitions and it would appear that they are vetted before being presented and are not guaranteed in any way to get approval.

As it seems the FBHVC are the only people to whom the DVLA will listen too should we not be telling them exactly what clubs expect from them, and get them to present a case that will cover all angles. If the organisation that is supposed to represent us does not work for us, then its time to get a new one that will.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

David,

I've directed all my correspondence to Sir Greg Knight, Chairman of the All Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group. Both he and the FBHVC's representatives meet with the relevant Ministers from time to time.

As you demonstrate, we're all stakeholders in this regardless of our views on Special building.

Our objective generally might be to rein in the DVLA's enthusiasm for changing the rules to suit its straitened circumstances.

My more specific objective is to have reinstated the 8-point system as was applied to my Special in 2009 in which the nature and construction of its new body was considered irrelevant for the retention of its identity.

Phil,

I couldn't agree more.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I'm totally with you on that Nigel.
It would be a major step back to normality.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel thanks, I was more thinking about what were the objectives of the "other" side. If one of the objectives of the DVLA is to live within a reduced budget, not unreasonable, then the A7 community needs to help them find alternative ways of doing this without compromising the ability to register or re-register historic vehicles. Unfortunately abuses in the past, not A7s in the main part, have, in the eyes of the DVLA and the general public, made this more difficult to achieve through a certification system relying on the various clubs.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Just an indication as to how far out of hand this has become: I know of a complete, all-original Renault Dauphine which has been imported from France. All the correct documentation required by DVLA has been presented, and rejected; a letter of authentication from the British Renault Club (which is DVLA approved) has been rejected; rubbings and photographs of all the relevant plates and stampings have been rejected. DVLA have now arranged for an independent company (SGS UK) to inspect the vehicle, presumably at some vast expense to the DVLA (and the taxpayer) ...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I'm (almost) speechless!
This SGS uk authentication will cost a fortune.
It really makes you wonder just how much more insane it can get?
-and all be cause of some over rich tossers building fake Bugatti's and trying to pass them off as original.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Mike I would be very surprised if the cost of this independent inspection were to be bore by the DVLA/ tax payer. It's more likely to be at the applicants expense even if the said inspection has a negative outcome.

Location: Work ( Sheffield)

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I was about to say similar Ian.
Having thought on this some more, could this be part of the way forward out of the current predicament?
If the DVLA were to be a little less intransigent over replacement bodies it could be part of the solution we need.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

David,

The FBHVC and the DVLA’s objective in my view is quite simply to carry the day with the Charter of Turin. I can’t be certain of his involvement in its architecture but the current Chairman of the Federation, David Whale, was in a senior position at the FIVA at the time of the charter’s creation and ratification and the Federation has championed the charter ever since. Read what you will into that.

If, as I read, the DVLA are withdrawing authority from club officials without explanation then it could be that they’re closing down lines of direct communication and plan to leave open only a conduit via, for instance, the FBHVC.

The abuses you mention and I assume you’re talking about the Bugatti Owner’s Club and others allegedly involved in falsifying provenance, I’ve always felt were a complete red-herring but gave the DVLA a moral high-ground from which they could exploit their economies and excuse their excesses.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel
David,

The FBHVC and the DVLA’s objective in my view is quite simply to carry the day with the Charter of Turin. I can’t be certain of his involvement in its architecture but the current Chairman of the Federation, David Whale, was in a senior position at the FIVA at the time of the charter’s creation and ratification and the Federation has championed the charter ever since. Read what you will into that.

If, as I read, the DVLA are withdrawing authority from club officials without explanation then it could be that they’re closing down lines of direct communication and plan to leave open only a conduit via, for instance, the FBHVC.

The abuses you mention and I assume you’re talking about the Bugatti Owner’s Club and others allegedly involved in falsifying provenance, I’ve always felt were a complete red-herring but gave the DVLA a moral high-ground from which they could exploit their economies and excuse their excesses.


Hi again Nigel,
did you mention the above concerns to Sir Greg Knight in your communications with him, particularly the Charter of Turin issues and David Whale's involvement with both the FBHVC and FIVA?
The possibility of DVLA withdrawing any authority from club officials is worrying. Has this been confirmed anywhere yet or is it speculation of a likely outcome?
It would help if FBHVC were more open about proceedings.

Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I am aware that the DVLA have asked some owners clubs to re apply for the scheme, the club I know who reapplied were accepted without question.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

NO TO 25 YEAR TAX EXEMPTION

The Government has ruled out reinstating the original 25-year road tax exemption for classic cars – despite more than 18,000 of you calling for it in an online petition.

The Treasury says it recognises that classics are an important part of the UK’s heritage, but feels the current 40-year rule is sufficient, allowing 10,000 vehicles to become exempt every year. It also recognises the importance of the historic vehicle movement, and reckons by its own data it supports the livelihood of 28,000 people across the country.

‘The Government is working to deliver a long-term economic plan to repair the public finances and will continue to take the difficult decisions to achieve this goal. Therefore, the Government currently has no plans to re-introduce a rolling 25-year exemption for this category of vehicle,’ a Treasury spokesman says.

He adds that in recognition of the contribution made in the 2014 Budget the Government announced a rolling 40-year Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) exemption for classic vehicles.

The online petition calling for a return to tax-free status at 25 years runs until 24 July, and had attracted 18,063 signatures as this issue of CCW went to press. Creator Logan Walker – who owns a Jaguar XJ-S and Mercedes-Benz SL R107 – says he’ll continue promoting the petition, but adds there’s a long way to go to reach the 100,000 signatures needed to prompt a Commons debate on it.

‘I was flabbergasted to see it even reach 15,000 signatures but it needs more than me pushing the debate to get any change,’ says Logan.

‘It needs to be a bandwagon that gets more mainstream support – imagine if someone like Chris Evans lent his support to it.

‘It’s not helping rich people who buy classics as investments. It’s about supporting ordinary working people who love bread and butter cars, for whom paying road tax every year might be the difference between them choosing to preserve an old car or not.

Location: East Sussex

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

IanBennett
Hi Mike I would be very surprised if the cost of this independent inspection were to be bore by the DVLA/ tax payer. It's more likely to be at the applicants expense even if the said inspection has a negative outcome.


The inspection has been booked for tomorrow (March 1st) and there has been no mention of a charge being made to the applicant.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Liam

I think the VED is a minor issue and although a zero rate is welcome what is at stake here is the ability of some A7s especially specials to be able to gain a status that allows them to be registered for use on the public roads at all.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I still maintain that tax concessions are like M.O.T. exemptions; a cynical means to an end. The more that old cars are segregated from the mainstream, the more likely they are to be singled out as receiving "special treatment". We would be better advised against special pleading.

On the contrary, we should be seen to pay our way. There are many people wishing old cars would disappear from our roads. We are portrayed as polluters of the environment and regardless of the facts there are vocal "envirofascists" who it seems are being heard at Government level. With luck, the freedoms that we presently enjoy will get enough support but these are uncertain times.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Fair do' s Mike. 👍🏻
Regards Ian.

Location: Work ( Sheffield)

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The article in Classic cars for sale yesterday may give some encouragement that the government acknowledges the importance of historic vehicles.





The Government has ruled out reinstating the original 25-year road tax exemption for classic cars – despite more than 18,000 of you calling for it in an online petition. The Treasury states why it’s sticking to the 40-year free duty rule on CCFS.

The Treasury says it recognises that classics are an important part of the UK’s heritage, but feels the current 40-year rule is sufficient, allowing 10,000 vehicles to become exempt every year. It also recognises the importance of the historic vehicle movement, and reckons by its own data it supports the livelihood of 28,000 people across the country – but the current road tax rules are here to stay.

Location: Oakley ,Hants

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Please let us not be drawn of topic.

There is a vast difference between being asked to pay the tax on a 25 year old car and not being able to register, or risk losing the registration of a previously registered pre-war car because of a reinterpretation of the rules.

If our message is not consistent, then we will not be listened to.

Peter


PS.

In my distant past, I was on a National Union of Students rally through Birmingham to keep the cap on tuition fees (at that time £1000 or so). Despite the clear goal, those present were protesting for "Grants not fees", "No fees" along with a load of other self interests. The NUS lost that campaign, and those subsequent campaigns - partly because they could not come up with a single clear message.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I was drawing your attention to this part of the text. Not trying to muddy the water


"It also recognises the importance of the historic vehicle movement, and reckons by its own data it supports the livelihood of 28,000 people across the country"

Location: Oakley ,Hants

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Peter Johnson
Please let us not be drawn of topic.

There is a vast difference between being asked to pay the tax on a 25 year old car and not being able to register, or risk losing the registration of a previously registered pre-war car because of a reinterpretation of the rules.


Agreed Peter,
the ability or loss of to register our vehicle for use on the road is what we are fighting for and discussing here.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Mike Costigan


The inspection has been booked for tomorrow (March 1st) and there has been no mention of a charge being made to the applicant.


I've just heard the inspection went ok, and DVLA are expected to respond within a couple of weeks ... and DVLA are footing the bill!

If they instigate professional inspections for every new application, they will soon be spending more than if they had retained the local offices!

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stephen Voller
Peter Johnson
Please let us not be drawn of topic.

There is a vast difference between being asked to pay the tax on a 25 year old car and not being able to register, or risk losing the registration of a previously registered pre-war car because of a reinterpretation of the rules.


Agreed Peter,
the ability or loss of to register our vehicle for use on the road is what we are fighting for and discussing here.

Steve V.



I think that the two issues are inextricably linked.

Why on earth should we expect to get something for nothing?

I was opposed from the outset to both the exemption from tax and exemption from MOT. It seemed to me to be blindingly bloody obvious that by ceasing to treat our cars in the same way as all others, the first steps towards restricting their use had been taken.

Did anyone seriously believe that the Government had done this out of the kindness of their hearts? There had to be a motive behind it and it seems to me that we're now in a position (to turn the phrase around) of "No representation without taxation!"

I would happily pay tax to run my cars in an unrestricted way, with the revenue being used by DVLA to employ some officers with specialist knowledge and understanding of historic vehicles to deal with the issues unique to them.

I would also welcome the return of some form of MOT for old vehicles, perhaps a little "softer" and less frequent than that for modern cars.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The free road tax and no road tax is a red herring. Nothing whatsoever to do with the DVLA situation.

The problem is that the environmental lobby are effecting government policy of lots of issues. Transport being a notable issue.

London currently has an emissions zone, how long is it until other large conurbations have similar? Not long I expect. They are already common in Europe.

The legislation created to police these is defined against the manufacturers stated emissions (what the european wide Vehicle Type approval is all about).

In essence the legislation is designed to keep older vehicles out of London, older vehicles being considered more damaging to the environment. This is mirrored in the Vehicle Excise Duty policy, older vehicles are taxed more than younger ones, the rates for modern cars are based on emissions. That said Historic Vehicles excepted.

Make no mistake it is current government and European policy to discourage the use of older vehicles, and encourage the use of modern ones. This it is said is about emissions, a cynic may well suggest it has a lot to do with the larger European car manufacturer lobby also!. The why isnt really important to me, but the how is.

There is a clear understanding and will both by the UK government and Europe to exempt historic vehicles from much of this legislation, the stumbling block seems to be the definition of what is a 'historic vehicle'.

FIVA http://www.fiva.org/site/en/ and in the UK the FBHVC http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/ have done a lot of work on gaining a european wide accepted definition, based on the Charter of Turin. I believe the current accepted definition is:

‘vehicle of historic interest’ means any vehicle which is considered to be historic by the Member State of registration or one of its appointed authorising bodies and which fulfils all the following conditions:
– It was manufactured or registered for the first time at least 30 years ago;
– Its specific type, as defined by the relevant legal acts of the Union on type approval, is no longer in production;
– It is preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition, and therefore has not undergone major changes in its technical characteristics.

There are lots of threads on various discussion groups, but it seems the two main hangups people have with this definition is with dates and modifications, with some getting hung up about daily use.

Dates, the long and short of it is that somewhere someone needs a cut off, yes this means a motor built 30 seconds before the cut off is historic, and one built 31 second later isn't, but hey ho, thats life. The rolling 30 year definition negates this in anycase (though this is sadly not mirrored in our UK DVLA rules - it seems from reading above the UK governement wants the income!)

modifications, the charter suggests period mods are fine, but on the other end of the scale when you make it into something it never was, or put a modern engine in it it isn't.

Looking at the whole picture, and ignoring the minority groups who think it should still be ok to do as they please and thus oppose FIVA, the FBHVC. We need to understand that those organisations are looking after the interests of historic vehicle owners by agreeing a definition and by ensuring that exemptions are in place.

Those who want to continue as they always have need to consider the reality, is your ford Zetek powered Lotus Elan really a Historic Vehicle?. Is your newly built bodied Austin 7 Special? The answer is probably NO, they are not. Certainly by the definition above. Can anyone even suggest a historic definition that would include for these?

Going forward, I expect that what has gone on to vehicles in the past will no longer be possible and still use the vehicle on the highway. In 10 years time you may well still be able to build a new special but you will not be able to take it on the road because all the exemptions for historic vehicles will not apply. And the type approval rules for new vehicles will similarly bar you.

If truth be known we are not far away from that now.

Without a definition and without exemptions we will be legislated off the road by the environmental lobby.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all


But Hedd, do you not accept that the fact that we are paying nothing significantly weakens our bargaining position?

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Martin Prior
[


I think that the two issues are inextricably linked.

Why on earth should we expect to get something for nothing?



What I type next will be controversial.......
Understand what your saying Martin, but try telling that to some pensioners or low income groups.
For people in service industries a lot of whom are lucky to see £10 per hour it could make the difference in enjoying an old car or not, not everyone is in skilled employment paying upwards of £20 to £50 per hour.

Playing devils advocate, say the Tax was around the £230 mark, -that could be the difference between maintaining the car to keep it on the road or not for some people.

I'm with you regarding M.O.T's.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

But Steve, don't forget that until quite recently we WERE all paying tax - I don't recall droves of owners abandoning their hobby because of it.

Out of interest, why £230? Doesn't an older "modern" 750cc pays £145?

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I do not.

If it is the plan to use the historic vehicle class as a weapon to use to rid us from the roads. Why are they not rolling the dates? And why has it not yet happened?

The free tax dates from John Majors days, it is quite a conspiracy theory to suggest that this government is going to use it against us. Blairs red torys never did, nor did this lot when imposed upon by the half loony lib dems. I can't see it somehow.

Our bargaining position is the amount of money we spend in the economy. Something the current lot will take heed of.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Mike Costigan
Mike Costigan


The inspection has been booked for tomorrow (March 1st) and there has been no mention of a charge being made to the applicant.


I've just heard the inspection went ok, and DVLA are expected to respond within a couple of weeks ... and DVLA are footing the bill!

If they instigate professional inspections for every new application, they will soon be spending more than if they had retained the local offices!


On a quick skim read through, the DVLA's contract with SGS appears to be flat rate @ £595,000 per year. More info on the contract here. https://www.delta-esourcing.com/delta/viewNotice.html?noticeId=123102368

According to someone who has had his vehicle inspected by SGS (car was another import), they took chassis engine etc. numbers and took loads of photos, a couple of weeks later the V5C turned up in the post.

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

In truth It turns out I wasn't comparing engine size like for like, I was thinking of an average 15 to 20 year old 1600cc car as an example because I happened to know of a car in that category ie mid sized engine range - big enough to cost a bit more in terms of emissions.
I accept that that it turns out I was talking a bit out of the top of my head!
I was thinking that a lot of old car insurance policies require that you must have a 'modern' as an everyday car with our old Austins being occasional use only - I wasn't thinking of the lower Tax band of £145 which would be less onerous.
Although I don't think paying road fund license will give us any more sway with
government or the DVLA.
Now taking foot out of mouth......
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stuart Giles
Mike Costigan
Mike Costigan


The inspection has been booked for tomorrow (March 1st) and there has been no mention of a charge being made to the applicant.


I've just heard the inspection went ok, and DVLA are expected to respond within a couple of weeks ... and DVLA are footing the bill!

If they instigate professional inspections for every new application, they will soon be spending more than if they had retained the local offices!


On a quick skim read through, the DVLA's contract with SGS appears to be flat rate @ £595,000 per year. More info on the contract here. https://www.delta-esourcing.com/delta/viewNotice.html?noticeId=123102368

According to someone who has had his vehicle inspected by SGS (car was another import), they took chassis engine etc. numbers and took loads of photos, a couple of weeks later the V5C turned up in the post.


That's quite interesting reading, the contract appears to be for 2 years from 4/2015, it would be interesting to see if the current discussions impact on SGS contract as it probably can not be changed until it ends so 4/2017 may see changes.

Location: Dorset

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

If it became too costly for SGS they would probably just walk away - at least that's what's happened with outsourcing in the NHS.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

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