Spot on Charles.
It would be interesting to know if that ‘chunk of oversight’ was officially sanctioned and if so, how? Such a mechanism could be cited as a precedent for change.

Chris Garner writes:

R,

Further to the on going discussions on the Friends' Forum if you think pertinent could / would you place the enclosed attachments on there please? It may fill in a few gaps and of course keep the readers informed.

Regards

Chris

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/progress-report-9-11-15.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/information-attachment.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rc-built-up-vehicle-report-hve.pdf

Thanks for posting that Ruairidh, most helpful.

Location: Ripon

Chris is the one to thank Duncan, I am just the messenger...

Thank you Chris for the documents.

Chilling reading; the DVLA are going all out to kill off Special building.

I'm sure some people will be clapping their hands with glee but I think most would recognise the wider implications of the DVLA’s new posture regarding historic and classic vehicles.
I have written yet again to Sir Greg Knight with some comments on the Progress Report.

The All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group is next meeting on the 10th February and, if you have some thoughts on the contents of these documents, it might be worthwhile contacting the Group by email at thomasml@parliament.uk

If we don’t make a noise about this, we can blame only ourselves for whatever constraints are put on our enjoyments in the future.

"Legally registered 1927 Bugatti" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121887307337?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Note the charming sales patter! I am now awaiting the arrival of the constabulary.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Comments from the sales blurb:-"I DO NOT NEED ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE VEHICLE FROM HISTORIANS . UNWANTED MESSAGES ARE NOW ILLEGAL AND WILL BE FORWARDED TO THE POLICE AS I'M SICK OF EBAY ANORAKS AND RATHER THAN PUNCH YOU IN YOUR TEENAGE HEAD I WILL JUST LET YOU RING YOUR MUM WHEN EBAY BAN YOU AND THE COPS PLAY WITH YOU IN A CELL."
Quite unpleasant.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Tony,
I think he/she is trying to be amusing but to me it sounds crass.Not a nice way to sell anything.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

The vendor sounds like a real charmer!
Registered as 1927 Bugatti on a V5c!
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or rebodied vehicles?

Nigel, I've emailed the Historic Vehicle Group as you suggested re our current problems with the DVLA - hopefully it will do some good somehow.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

I think it’s worth mentioning...

FBHVC Newsletter 2013. Re: The Charter of Turin.

‘Some, who have failed to grasp the political significance of this important development have sought to portray the charter as an example of officialdom constraining the use and preservation of historic vehicles. Nothing could be further from the truth’.

Re: FBHVC Newsletter 2015. Re: DVLA Policy Changes.

‘Discussions on our unhappiness at what is happening have continued without much success until now. […] If we get anywhere with this approach we will clearly be asking what public interest is served by this new obsession with originality where it was previously not required’.

Who failed to grasp what, couldn’t be clearer.

Location: North Yorkshire

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Hi Steve,
that's pretty much what I surmised.
Doesn't help that DVLA no longer have adequately trained and knoweledgable staff.
Having worked for another government Quango involving rules and regulations, the making thereof and implementation of same, -seeing the current DVLA half ars*d we'll make it up as we go along approach doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

In a reverse to a recent situation, we colonials sit in startled wonder at the UK's historic car groups ongoing discussions with the DVLA (and I thought VicRoads was a weird name)

Look at the length of this series of Forum postings !

This rather bizarre story-

"The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter."

must surely give some ammunition to point up the stupidity in the DVLA's approach to the recent decisions regarding rebuilt Austin Sevens.

But what would a colonial know

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!

Location: oz

Location: East Sussex

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

You could try an FOI (Freedom of Inforamtion) request from DVLA. They should be able to extract that detail from their database.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

Fascinating that with all the hoo haa going on with the DVLA, the latest edition of the FBHVC News carries a four page article on the British Motor Heritage - manufacturers of replace bodies for makes such as the Mini, MGB etc.

Location: Melton Mowbray

Location: Auckland NZ

'If it's true that we are witnessing the death of special building then it's a very sad day'.

It's even sadder if we just stand by and watch it happen!

Location: North Yorkshire

I could be wrong here, but as I understand it at under the rules at the present time, if you have a vehicle that has a current V5C you are able to fit a replacement body different from the original to the unmodified chassis. The DVLA are informed by using the V627/1 form, the vehicles name must be changed as it no longer resembles the original, but it will retain its original registration number and historic status and will have to be inspected.

This information comes from Ribble Kits http://www.sammio.co.uk/images/Ribble.pdf
Who supply glass fibre bodies for Triumph Herald type chassis and class it as a classic re-body and not a kit rebuild. If this information is correct it should be fairly easy to register an A7 special with a current V5C.

Location: Pembrokeshire

As far as I can interpret the DVLA's policy,there is no problem whatsoever in creating a special from a complete vehicle with a current registration; equally there should be no problem in obtaining an age-related plate for an unrecorded vehicle, as long as you can supply suitable evidence of the vehicle's original identity in the form of the buff or green Registration Document.

The problem we now have is the resurrection or reconstruction from an original chassis frame and components from other origins which the DVLA term as a reconstructed classic. Even though the chassis has always been considered the basic unit of the vehicle, and in the case of the Austin Seven the frame can be readily dated from its number, DVLA are now no longer accepting that as being evidence of the age of the special.

Unless I’m missing some fundamental point, parts of the Progress Report posted by Chris Garner headed ‘V765 Scheme’ and ‘Reconstructed Classics’, seem to me to be contrary to Phil’s and Mike’s interpretations of the maybe/maybe not, rules.
In particular, sections 8, 9 and 15 together are something that Joseph Heller might have been proud of and, equally imaginative, under the heading of Progress, ‘Initial discussions underway with the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs’!
In 2006, I finished my A7 Special and took it to the local DVLA offices for inspection. The 8-point system was applied and a tax disc awarded. I have written to Sir Greg Knight urging him to argue with the utmost vigour for the system’s ‘complete, unaltered and unambiguous reinstatement’.
Only then will Special builders know where we stand.

I saw this Big Seven looking sorry for itself and on reading the advert it would seem that we are returning to the problems that we used to have in that even given the evidence, the DVLA are refusing to play ball. If we can't even return genuine original cars to the road then we really do have a big problem. Effectively, our hobby could be frozen in time with no more old cars being rescued and restored. Is that a fair assessment?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1937-Austin-Big-Seven-Original-Restoration-or-Pre-War-Racer-Project-RARE-/111902058518?hash=item1a0de1e816:g:s9cAAOSwHQ9Wbttz

Location: Derby

They don't say if they went through the procedure of having an appropriate club official verify the authenticity of the car which would be necessary under the current rules, since the demise of the Local Vehicle Licensing Offices who would have done the inspection previously.
I suspect they didn't and tried to do it solo.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

With reference to the Big Seven mentioned by Ray, has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated, or an age-related one issued? This particular car is highly unlikely to ever get one!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Location: Derby

'has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated'

Nope, when I got my Austin 10 Lichfield's original registration re-issued to me circa 1980, I had the car inspected by on officer from Brighton LVLO and had to hand over the old buff logbook and once verified the original reg was was re-issued on a V5.
Things aren't the same now obviously.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

I went into my local DVLA office before they all shut to try to get my car's number back. I found them very helpful, took my Norfolk club dating cert, period pics and buff log book, they photocopied them and sent them off. Two weeks later V5c drops through the door, ahh the good ol days. No need for an mot to apply for the V5 but once issued it stays dormant until the car is mot'd.

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

From one of the Facebook Austin 7 special groups.

interesting one today my friends special had ruby on log book so as he heard new rules that if body type is not the same as what the car is he decided to chat to them and find out what to do ,there straight away took original old number of car and has to be q plate ,mot and taxed really bad but seems no special will be save unless it has tourer specail or two seater on log book

Location: Buxted

I missed reading this bit in FBHVC News issue 1,2016 until just now.

"I have to report that the first approach by the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group (APPHVG) to Government has not achieved very positive results. Following the presentation of our arguments in a meeting with the Minister, Mr Andrew Jones MP by the APPHVG chairman, Sir Greg Knight, and our chairman David Whale, the only response has been that: “The policy has not changed”. While this comment was made during a speech and so was accompanied by no detail, we understand Mr Jones is writing to Sir Greg, which might mean we get more clarity on the reasons why DVLA consider this to be the case. We do not doubt that Sir Greg will wish to take the matter further and we will be working out how best to support him.

Meanwhile we can only say to those with projects which now appear to be at risk because of changed bodywork styles that they ought not to despair, but on the other hand would probably be best to be patient and not to put forward applications for the next little while, as things might well get a little better."

This was published a number of weeks ago now.

So what's the latest?
Can we expect a happy conclusion to this fiasco soon or will it carry on interminably?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

We can expect nothing if we do nothing.

Hi Nigel,
do we know when we will hear what happened as a result of the 'All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group' meeting held on the 10th February?
I seem to remember around the end of Feb was mentioned somewhere or is my memory playing tricks?!
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Hello Steve, I'm still waiting for a reply to my last letter to Sir Greg. I've no idea what the agenda was for their last meeting but I would hope that ours and anyone else's comments would have been discussed. As soon as I hear, you'll hear.

I’ve heard today from Sir Greg who writes,

‘I am having a number of discussions with Ministers about the current attitude of the DVLA […]
Ministers do appear to be both interested and willing to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion […]
I will do what I can!’

Here’s something from Martin Luther King Jr (perhaps a shade melodramatic but nevertheless topical):

‘The saving of our world from pending doom will come not from the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority but from the creative maladjustment of a non-conforming minority.'

Special builders and Ministers take note.

I quite like the idea of being creatively maladjusted

Location: Kent

'creative maladjustment of a non-conforming minority' - that must be us!

I hate built in obsolescence and the brain washing of ''if it's new it must be better'' - don't get me wrong if somethings good then it's good - whatever the age.
However I like things that can be repaired and given renewed life, which is in part why we like our old cars.

Also if it's old, repairable and still as good or better than it's modern counterpart then I like that even better still.
Which is why I play vinyl records on a 1970's turntable played through late 1950's valve amplifiers all of which I have rebuilt.
Ironically they compete very well for sound quality and don't seem to display the muddy sound that can be associated with some vintage systems.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Look more appropriate in here

Jeff Taylor
Feb 24, 2016 - 1:57PM
Quote Reply FIVA Press Release 11am Feb 24th
See 'Practical Classics' Facebook page for the full discussion - needless to say they're not too happy with the FIVA press release:

https://www.facebook.com/PracticalClassics/posts/1121395297878756

https://www.facebook.com/PracticalClassics/photos/a.268875403130754.70714.225407620810866/1121407311210888/?type=3&theater

Also mentioned in the left hand column of their web page - scroll down the page.

http://www.practicalclassics.co.uk

DH: FIVA says: “By ‘historic vehicle’, we mean a mechanically
propelled road vehicle at least 30 years old, preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition and not used as a means of daily transport. These vehicles are part of our
technical and cultural heritage and, in our opinion, should not be lumped together with old, badly maintained cars.”
FIVA.... you have a fight on your hands. I have started by asking an official question - how will they define and police 'historically correct'. We need to mobilise around this. This is a picture of my daily.... which according to FIVA is not historic because I use it regularly.

Jeff.

Location: Almost but not quite, the far North East of England

Location: East Sussex

just to repeat what I said in Jeffs thread.

I don't like the idea of being told when I can and cannot drive my vehicle.
Being historic and a daily driver shouldn't be totally mutually exclusive.
I don't want old, well maintained cars to become glorified museum pieces otherwise what's the point of having one.
Also if there are no affordable newer old cars permitted, how will we get younger people into the old car world?

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

As predicted here and elsewhere, we are being led by the nose into a situation where the definition of "historic vehicle" is laid down by the E.U. in accordance with the Charter of Turin.

Location: Derby

Would someone who has precise knowledge of these matters care to explain the route that a "rank and file" club member needs to traverse to elicit information from high level discussions/decisions being made on our behalf. For example the PWA7C has a committee and officers who one would expect to be kept informed by the FBHVC (or are there others as well as FBHVC?)regularly of all matters of concern to the old vehicle movement. This is then passed down to the r and f member. Since this DVLA business started about a year ago there have been many rumours,much speculation,especially on our "Friends" website but very few facts and from what I have seen this is not the fault of said committee and officers. I realise that all the above committee and officers do this job for no payment and entirely out of enthusiasm for old cars.
So do clubs pay the FBHVC and if so how much and wouldn't that entitle us to a decent level of service from them as far as reporting back or am I being too naive?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

I think I'm right that the rate paid by a club for membership is about 40p per member. That doesn't sound a lot until you work out that for a large club like PWA7C that's almost 500 quid a year. All the more reason that we should be demanding better consideration than we get. Personally I think FBHVC take us for a ride.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

We could soon find ourselves being restricted by EU regulations on old and historic vehicles, and they would appear to be more concerned about air quality than history as well as any thing the DVLA may wish to introduce on top.

The thing that does not get mentioned anywhere is that an old or historic vehicle may pollute the air more than a modern but when you take into account the pollution caused by manufacturing,shipping, scrapping and recycling several new cars to replace that vehicle over the years the older vehicle becomes quite environmentally friendly.

Location: Pembrokeshire