Historic vehicles are not simply ‘old’ vehicles

http://www.classicandsportscar.com/forum/classic-chat/fiva-calls-to-separate-old-cars-from-historic-cars-%E2%80%93-have-your-say-here

Location: East Sussex

Quite a good article from James at C&SC about the whole FIVA shambles that has also appeared.

Not sure if the two are linked though!

On a side note I built the C&SC site a few years ago.

Location: Buxted

As someone who is trying to rebuild/restore a 1925 car
This topic is causing a great deal of uncertainty to the Aysti 7
Community . The re-invention of Austin Sevens has been as much a part of the heritage
left by Herbert, for example all the period coach builders and the all the "special" builders
Who kept so many of these cars on the road, often on a budget in the 1950's and 60's for us and the general public to enjoy now.

How can folk who are restoring ancient buses and trucks, all with their coach built bodies,
Cope with any new draconian regime. So if you make a cab from scratch, then you cannot get a V5C.

In period many coach built cars had their bodies exchanged
Given that A7 bodies cost only £7? New at the factory And many Rolls Royce cars
Were regularly given new bodies in the 1930's and 40's.

Anyone know how the Commercisl Clubs view this Saga?

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Borders

I agree Bill, At one time Rolls Royce only sold a rolling chassis, so there is no defined type of body for them, as with many commercial vehicles, in fact many company's made rolling chassis available to coachbuilders. The only important part of a vehicle like this is the driving chassis, that is the bit that is drivable and the part that is registered. If we take a newly made body and stick a box section chassis under it and fit a draw bar is not a motor car its trailer put it on an original chassis and it a motor vehicle and subject to all the relevant laws that go with it.

Location: Pembrokeshire

... and DVLA have issued a correctly recorded age-related Historic status V5C!

Hi Mike
Is that with BF letters and 4 number?
Liam

Location: East Sussex

No, it's for a 1950s Renault Dauphine, so it's three numbers, three letters.

I do wonder whether DVLA are running out of numbers, and that's an ulterior motive for the present difficulties!

Here's an interesting one to consider with relation to this thread- Apparently has a historic registration but gives few details further than that as to what it's actually registered as. Either way, the description of "90% new parts" would suggest that it doesn't really qualify..... I suspect this is a very expensive can of worms! (also I'm no fan of hot rods, so I'm automatically suspicious!)


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Ratrod-Hotrod-Austin-7-Morris-V8-LSD-Mustang-Modified-New-Retro-V5-PX-/121926924288?hash=item1c63693800:g:kY0AAOSwoudW6ekV

Location: Herefordshire

You can bet your sweet patootie that the V5C doesn't reflect the vehicles current status!
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

I was talking last night to someone who had reported this particular vehicle to DVLA, for its claim to historic vehicle status.

The car is being sold as tax and MOT exempt, but the only "historic" part is a heavily-modified Ruby bodyshell.

DVLA's response was that it was nothing to do with them and that the matter should be referred to VOSA.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

So they'll accept a vehicle with so little left of the original that it's barely recognizable to keep a an age related plate but won't accept a rebodied vehicle with all original chassis and mechanics?
Plus seemingly they're now picking and choosing who to harass or not, regardless of a vehicles legitimacy?

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Reporting stuff like this to "the Authorities " is guaranteed to make life more difficult for the rest of us.
I hope he didn't take his whinge "'Snot fair, I couldn't do it so I'll stop anyone else by reporting them so there" to VOSA. This is the sort of behaviour that has engendered the nightmare we are dealing with, pace Pur Sang etc.
I'm not condoning or promoting the committing of Civil Offences but drawing bureaucrats' attention to something only encourages them and spoils it for everyone else!

Location: Ripon

S'pose there's truth in that, especially as there are others patiently keeping their head down waiting for sense to prevail so they can eventually then get a legitimate registration.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

I have to say Duncan, I totally disagree with you on that point. I think something which is BLATANTLY taking the mick should be reported. It might make life harder for the rest of us, it might not. Just letting people do what they want won't solve the problem either, it'll just perpetuate it and this issue will never go away.

Location: Herefordshire

I won't win any friends for saying so, but I don't think "hot rods" like this cobbled together heap of crap should be considered as a legitimate vehicle - let alone an historic one. Unless a hybrid vehicle meets modern standards of road worthiness (which it likely never will) it should be kept off the road. It is not an old car; it is a new car built from old parts. Motor manufacturers have to meet certain standards and mixing disparate parts like this is just stupid.

Location: Derby

I think it does raise another point worth making-This is a potentially very powerful, handbuilt missile. The idea of it being considered MOT exempt terrifies me! Who knows how well done the work actually is. To be honest I don't agree with MOT exemption on any car, but especially so in cases like this.
And what about the person who buys it? They could potentially spend £16+K on something that is very dodgy indeed. If there was latterly a problem, the seller (who doesn't appear to be a motor dealer) could wash their hands of it. If it's reported, then that could save someone a lot of money and a lot of trouble.

Location: Herefordshire

I tend to agree, the CLAIM was for an historic vehicle, I'd be surprised if he could insure it without declaring all the modifications which would take him back to DVLA and VOSA. It would never pass an IVA test at the VOSA inspection and therefore would not end up on the road legally. If someone did take it on the road it would not get far without being stopped, let's hope that would occur before injury or death.

My beef was against the guy with a pointed stick poking the sleeping dog ...

Location: Ripon

Well said Ray!

Duncan, While I agree almost entirely with your most recent post, I totally disagree with your original point. The current "nightmare" has, I gather, been brought about by the failure of certain clubs and individuals to responsibly self-regulate their activities.

Surely it's better for "US" collectively to distance ourselves from gross abuses by reporting them, than to wait for their inevitable discovery by the authorities?

Why should the the rest of us be dragged down by a bunch of arseholes who, for whatever reason, operate way, way outside the rules?

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Tax evasion and tax avoidance
One is criminal and the other is a legitimate loophole.

DVLA rules allows it and is legitimate, not kosher in our eyes.

I reckon there is over 10k which fall into this category from SS100 Jaguars, D and C types, New 4,5 Bentleys with 1952 RR engine and chassis, AC Cobra, majority of the Bugatti with BC chassis numbers etc. this is the tip of the iceberg.

Going the reporting route will only complicate things.

Location: East Sussex

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

I have to say I have a lot of sympathy with this comment.
I don't particularly want to 'poke the sleeping dog' but do we really have a choice?

Said dog is as far as we can see happy to doze in the knowledge that it is in charge and not particularly bothered about the fact that it is making life difficult for those with totally original chassis and mechanics having long lost an original registration and for whatever reason have needed to have a replacement body fitted, but are at the same time happy to ignore or permit abominations that have no legitimate entitlement.

To carry the analogy further we are currently dismissed as nuisance fleas that the dog has to occasionally acknowledge with the odd scratch to ease irritation!

If we want to be taken seriously do we not have a certain obligation to be self regulating?

I've only been following the situation since the beginning of October 2015 but this whole sorry state seems to have been going on for perhaps 2 years or more.
We're already over half way through March 2016 and at least publicly don't seem to be any further forward (it's anybodies guess what goes on behind closed doors).

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Location: East Sussex

Hang on-Isn't what you've just described EXACTLY the practice that is causing the hassle for us now?!

Location: Herefordshire

Not even from old parts - the advert claims it's built from 90% new parts!

indeed
and to put it in context I reckon there is over 10k cars which fall into this category from SS100 Jaguars, D and C types, New 4,5 Bentleys with 1952 RR engine and chassis, AC Cobra, majority of the Bugatti with BC chassis numbers, Kit Cars etc. this is the tip of the iceberg.

Location: East Sussex

What about this one
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C704937

Location: East Sussex

I have a soft spot for replicas especially where the builder has paid close attention to detail. Whether or not they should be treated in exactly the same way as cars with a genuine pedigree is a moot point. To my mind, although they are not historic vehicles they probably deserve to be recognised by the authorities as a special case and fall into a category of their own with similar dispensations to those enjoyed by genuine historic vehicles.

I think I would argue that where a vehicle is constructed with no attempt made to follow in the spirit of an original (historic) design but reflects the builder's imagination and flair; being essentially a 'hot rod' or 'street rod' of some kind, then it should be treated differently. Where the line should be drawn between these cars and 'specials' is not something that I feel sufficiently confident to comment on.

Location: Derby

Liam, what baffled me was your comment that "DVLA rules allow this and it is legitimate".

Almost all traditional Austin Seven projects could comply with those rules as virtually all of them were mechanically of pre-war origin and re-bodying an old chassis was perfectly OK.

As far as I'm aware, DVLA rules have never allowed new, or substantially new-build cars to be registered as "historic" vehicles.

However, if what I've read on this thread is true, certain clubs and individuals have been abusing the system on an industrial scale and we are all now being punished for their activities.

A 2010 new-build with 2010 on the V5 is a replica. A 2010 new-build with 1930 on the V5 is a fake and should be treated as such. I don't care whether there are ten thousand of them out there!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

FBHVC and DVLA have you been communicating or are we forever in this same old loop? A progress report would be very welcome. Has anyone read "The Castle " by Franz Kafka? It's decades since I read it but I seem to remember it was about a few peasants being controlled by a massive number of bureaucrats based in the castle on the hill where the bureaucrats were incapable of making any decision. Sounds familiar........
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Forum members may be interested to know what the seller of the hot rod has to say about the V5c....

And I quote

" The logbook has no other information on it other than 'morris', no model or anything else on there (ideal hotrod book). Think I'm the second owner on the v5, need to pull it out to double check. It's a new v5c so no worries with it needing a check like some of the older style log books. It's obviously an mot and tax exempt book. I know a lot of owners that run their rods in this way so it's the route I was taking, but insuring it with everything disclosed. Reg is transferable too, so worth a bit!. "

Location: Herefordshire

Many years ago, yes.

His other work "Metamorphosis" is highly relevant to this thread too!!

I have just been reading the latest newsletter from FBHVC (issue 2/2016) and note there is absolutely zero progress from the DVLA on age-related registration. It is on FBHVC website for those who are interested.
Dave

Location: Sheffield

Sigh

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

It is possible we may be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.

Our Authentication Officer here at the PWA7C has received a communication from the Kits & Rebuilds section of the DVLA requesting advice on types of coachwork fitted to Sevens - specifically Ulsters - and asking whether coachwork built bodies were the " norm ". Further questions centred around whether a new body could be representative of the marque and was a Seven designed to be fitted with a sports body.
Needless to say our Officer gave him chapter and verse, together with scans of relevant information and photographs; so much so that the DVLA probably now know as much as we do about Sevens!!
Let us hope this is the first step in a way forward.

Chris - Chair, PWA7C Limited

Location: Melton Mowbray

Chris, does this mean that someone at DVLA is actually interested in keeping our heritage alive? I do hope so, at least there is recognition of our concerns.

Location: Piddle Valley

Hi Chris G,
That is sounding a positive turn of events, as they are now asking the right questions and hopefully listening with an open mind.

If they understand the principle of coach built bodies and that you could buy a 'car' consisting of a motorized running chassis from the factory and have a body fitted elsewhere it must open the way to understanding the car manufacturing scene as it used to be.

This must also assist with any change of body, be it saloon, sports or van which could happen at any time, from the day the chassis first rolled off the production line through to the present day.

It has been heartbreaking seeing people selling off there projects and cars piecemeal.

I don't want to get too excited too soon but this could be the major break through we've been waiting for!

I really hope so as we all desperately need such a boost.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Thanks for the information Chris and also thanks to Peter. It sounds quite promising!
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Stephen Voller
Dec 13, 2015 - 2:43PM
Quote Reply Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all
Is your friend trying to get the cars original number officially reissued to his vehicle or trying to get a new age related number allocated ?
Certainly seems to be a lengthy process, I dread to think how many vehicles currently involved and that's without those of us still waiting to register.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

My friend just received a letter from DVLA requesting him to make an appointment with SGS for the car to be examined.
A good start I think. but took a year to get this letter.
Liam

Location: East Sussex

Hopefully things will progress more quickly now Liam.
Sure am glad you friend wasn't holding his breath!

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

not at all he bought a spare V5 just in case.
The DVLA reference is : Kits and Rebuilds

Location: East Sussex

Perhaps an update, such as it is, is required.
The latest FBHVC News carries an article on Registration Matters. Firstly it would appear that the DVLA negotiator moved on and it took some time to establish with whom to deal with (!)
As we know the major issue concerns bodies on vehicles with a chassis. The DVLA has on numerous occasions rejected applications on the basis of the body not being original or consistent with the original body style - often based on the body style described in the old VE60 logbooks. The DVLA's own publication, viz INF 26 and V765/3 appear to preclude that bodies on chassis should be considered in the case of a genuine vehicle. However the DVLA continue to maintain that local authorities always had considered bodies in the past and thus would continue to do so.
Much research has unearthed a Ministry of Transport document regarding licensing, taxation and registration which clearly states that the chassis constitutes the vehicle and that it not only forms the frame but both of the axles, gears, steering and transmission. A change of body by itself does not constitute a change in identity.
A further search appears to show that this policy remains unchanged.
Thus this information has been conveyed to the DVLA in a Policy Paper and a response is awaited.

Chris Garner, VC- A7CA

Location: Melton Mowbray

At first reading this would seem to be a step in the right direction. Let's hope that common sense prevails in the face of red tape.

THIS MORNING THE INSPECTOR ON BEHALF OF DVLA CAME TO INSPECT THE AUSTIN 7. HE CHECKED ALL AROUND AND TOOK NOTE OF THE CHASSIS AND ENGINE NUMBERS AND TOOK SOME PHOTOS. IN ALL 20 MINUTES.
HOPEFULLY THAT WILL SETTLE THE MATTER.

Location: East Sussex

So it's taken nearly seven months for the inspection to happen? Unbelieveable!

Let's hope a suitable V5C arrives within the next few days, as it did for the case of the Renault Dauphine that I mentioned last year.

At this rate I will be in my woodland wicker casket before any progress is made on registering my special.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Sadly I was not able to retain the number from my 1925 barn find trials special unearthed after a 40 year slumber, despite sending DVLA both a 40 year old, MOT and Tax Disc, receipt of Reg file transfer from "home" authority to the final one . Plus I had the usual dating letter and inspection report from the local club.

Despite all this a a full set of photos DVLA reject my application to retain the 1925 reg number and sent all my documentation back.

When I phoned to discuss the situation the official was as helpful as they could be but said they were "powerless"
As they had a strict protocol to follow and as I had not proved a direct link between the chassis no and the registration no they had to decline my application for a V5. However the official said I had enough evidence to get an age related number, which after about two months they finally issued one , in the correct format 2 letters 4 digits.

Always try to get a personal contact at DVLA in the K& R section ( there are 14 of them!) being able to phone enabled me to negotiate this maze caused by the Govt cutting civil service jobs in LOcal licensing offices

Now need to complete the Cup Rep body and change the colour!

Happy motoring!

Having a set of original Chummy wings and a 50 year old rough trials body possibly helped , but not to retain its own number even though I had loads of data but not the crucial logbook or Licensing Office records many of which were destroyed across the country.

I must try and research the age related no!

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Border

After a month he received a letter from DVLA

FURTHER TO THE INSPECTION OF YOUR VEHICLE, I AM CONSIDERING YOUR CASE AND WILL SEND YOU A FULL REPLY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Really Scandalous, Does not look very good

Location: East Sussex

Has your friend been in touch with the FBHVC? - if not he should - they keep saying they need examples of whats going on.

Location: Kent

Please don't throw things at me, but having been involved in the whole process several times myself and also taking an interest in genuine cars, I really feel for the DVLA bods because the lengths some of the fakers have gone to, in order to create desirable vintage and post vintage cars is extraordinary.

What's more, a lot of them have got away with it. There are heaven knows how many Riley Imps, Brooklands, MPH's that all started out as perfectly restorable saloons, but have now inherited some sort of "history"...the same goes for whole range of other cars including six cylinder MGs, Singer LeMans, Wolseley Hornets, Bentleys and Bugattis, where there are more around now than were actually built in the first place!

Sadly the big money cars are being used to shift large amounts of money around the globe by rich businessmen and investors, which means a) the real thing is out of a lot of people's reach now and b)Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has tightened up the rules to the point that the DVLA are looking very, very closely at every application, virtually regardless of the value of the car, knowing that a correct registration considerably adds to the value of the vehicle, particularly where "history" is concerned...did you know Tazio Nuvolari raced my Box saloon?

I really feel for the owners of specials like Hamblins and Speedex who are trying to retain a bit of history to their cars, even though they were built in the 50's and 60's and if you are building a special today, you really do have to have all your ducks in a row.