Hedd, I hope the DVLA do not go down those lines and only see the shiny new body placed on a genuine old chassis, which presently seems to be the case until this situation is made clearer. That sort of thinking will doom us all, as any vehicle that is not as it originally left the factory could be classed as a special, even if it was just a 12 volt conversion or fitting an upgraded crankshaft if the rules were to be applied as such.

Manufacturers sold rolling chassis to coachbuilders and the public, and the choice of body was up to the customer. In the past many cars were re-bodied in different forms by company's and individuals, this is part of our motoring heritage and has been for many, many years and there are plenty of re-bodied cars, specials and kit cars around to prove the point.

The current feeling would seem to be if the body is over 25 years old it is OK to fit it, So if you want to build a special go ahead build it then wait 25 years before it can be registered, this concept is ridiculous, and in any case a body cannot be seen as a major component unless it is made of fibreglass, because it is made up of many smaller components all of which can be changed,in fact the same could be said of a chassis just to complicate matters further.

Having said all this the real problem that has caused all this trouble in the first place, is at what point does a vehicle become classed as new? We should not be arguing about the originality of the look of the vehicle, but the amount of original manufacturers parts in it. As far as I can see the best way to do this would be to have the parts inspected before the restoration or registration process has even started instead of after all the work has been done, a recognition / approval certificate could then be given to the old components and an assessment of how much will have to be changed to make a usable vehicle, based on the old 8 points system, not enough original components or to many new ones required it does not get approved.

Location: Pembrokeshire

This is not just a case of building specials - and in Austin Seven terms we are really talking about special bodies on largely original underpinnings, not something like a GN chassis fitted with MG axles and some obscure aero engine!
How do you see an authentic 1923 Austin Seven painstakingly recreated on an original 1923 chassis and all 1923 components sourced over many years from all over the globe, but of necessity fitted with a brand new body tub?

Ray, I believe as things stand at the moment you could probably still be OK, because you are talking about a complete entity (less body) rather than a collection of parts from miscellaneous sources. In your particular case, I think you need to be talking to the VCC about your specific example, as they are going to be the ones who will have to provide the authentication letter for the DVLA. Once you have suitable dating information, you will be able to register it with the DVLA before any rebuild starts; if you need bodywork, just stick a 25 year old household chair on the chassis!

Thanks Mike. Great stuff. Yes, it would need to be more or less all there as I will be at the mercy of the VCC dating committee. I'm not sure how much confidence one can have following the fiasco a few years ago but like with the DVLA we have to make the best of the hand we have been dealt.

I wonder if 'er indoors would miss the odd chair?

Location: Derby

Thinking about it,I'll revise that specification to include an original 1923 body too; any sane person would see a complete, authentic, 1923 Austin Seven, but the DVLA at the moment would consider it a collection of parts of indeterminate origin requiring IVA examination, and if you're lucky, a Q-plate!

Without a "clear" title document you wouldn't be able to export the car from the USA from my past experience: US customs will want sight of the title to ensure that you're not exporting a stolen car, or a car where the title may have a lien (outstanding finance, unpaid repair bill etc.) registered against it.

If the car does has a title, once imported, you would simply send the original title document to the DVLA along with the duty paid import paperwork and the filled in registration form and your V5C with age related plate will duly arrive. Occasionally cars will be inspected, but that inspection is only to ascertain that chassis etc. numbers match the paperwork you sent in.

Location: Kent, UK

Thank you for that Stuart. It actually answers a number of questions, not least of which is why the contact I have is being evasive.

Location: Derby

and since the Vintage Hot Rod Association interpretation of the meeting,there is a complete silence from DVLA. Has anybody heard anything?
My car is awaiting a new replica body.
Richard

Location: Southport

One information that DVLA has released during the meeting on the 23 September.
That Non reflective number plates black and white or black and silver are now permitted on classics built before January 1975 as long as the cars have been registered as Historic Vehicles.

The authorities seem intent on providing us with exemptions that are not needed.

Location: Derby

I was just about to buy a Austin 7 special but having read this will now be investing in my other hobbies at least they have not been banned yet.

How can Joe public ie me not an expert although I have done my research tell what he is buying. The vehicle I was buying is on it's original reg. It has a new body, but does it have it's original engine or gearbox? probably not it's been used a trial vehicle since the 60's and then there is the honesty of the chap selling it, he may not even no himself. So I buy it and then DVLA say sorry mate cannot drive it. Open a can of worms killed classic car ownership more like.

Fed up

Brian

Location: Wiltshire

Brian,
I think you are over reacting. I know plenty of people in the old car world still building specials/restoring with 'new' bodies and they are not unduly worried especially if the car already has its original reg number/log book.
What does the log book say about body style? Saloon,Tourer,Sports? Did you check that?
My understanding is the DVLA will not be contacting everyone to ask them to 'prove' the provenance of their cars but will be contacting individuals where there is the possibility of say a Type 35 claiming to be 1920 something when it was in fact made from scratch in South America a couple of years ago from 100% new parts.

Paul N-M

Location: Edinburgh

Paul
Approximately 200 letters sent from DVLA to Bugatti owners:
Fact one: Only 3 cars in the UK are known to be South America Pur Sang
Fact two: The rest 99 pct are home build by the like of Tula Engineering, Gentry Restorations, Ivan Dutton and Crosthwaite and Gardiner.

Location: East Sussex

Hi Pat

It shown on the V5 as sport was registered in 1983 but declared new 1936.

Brian

Location: Wiltshire

Liam,
The problem with Bugs is that the dodgy ones have effected many less dodgy ones as well as totally genuine straight cars and the DVLA now think they are all at it!

Location: Edinburgh

So you mean dodgy is not acceptable but less dodgy and genuine are acceptable.
Out of the appro 200 cars 90 pct are dodgy and semi dodgy.
You need to keep in mind that in the 60s a big majority of genuine cars was dismantled and three cars appeared in lieu, one with a genuine chassis one with a genuine engine and one with a genuine body.
Where do you draw the line

More a case that we all appreciate that old cars need ongoing work/replacement parts, sometimes major parts like engines, body etc to keep them on the road. Keeping them in a usable condition and driven by enthusiasts is what its all about. No one bothered about making up a 'bitza' as values were relatively low and the old car movement a lot smaller than it is today.
Its now big business with lots of money driving values ever skyward and supported by companies that have capabilities way beyond swapping a clapped out engine for a slightly less clapped out one, albeit still made in period.
To pick up on your point about one original car spawning three 'original' cars. Again some may have raised eyebrows at this practice anticipating where it may lead, the courts in some cases as values rocketed, but most were comfortable that we had two more of our type of car on the road/track. Has this now come back to haunt us?
So much so we now have situations of 'toolroom' copies being raced in stead of the original due to astronomical values. The very fact it is seen as economical to go to the huge expense of making a brand new tool room copy is astounding!
Yes, we all want our cars to be kept going and need our cherished suppliers.
With so much money driving the market there are many who will supply whatever the customer wants even if almost 100% new.
It could be argued this has ruined it for the run of the mill enthusiast now that the DVLA has woken up to what's been going on. Lets hope not and as I said in a previous post many restoration businesses are carrying on as usual but obviously with a watchful eye on developments and hopefully considered advise to their customers.
Some people just could not resist the lure of big bucks!

Paul N-M

Location: Edinburgh

The DVLA’s hotline isn't capable of dealing with many of the issues raised by classic owners, according to the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs.

The Federation reached this conclusion after attending the registration agency’s Historic Vehicle Meeting on 23 September, along with representatives of more than 70 clubs. CCW was not allowed to attend.

The Federation’s report reads: ‘The DVLA made it clear at this meeting that it was impossible to provide specialists on its enquiry line and that historic vehicle owners would only have recourse to its general enquiries line. Appeal to FBHVC therefore remains the most effective way of having your case taken up by specialists directly with senior officials within DVLA.’

The Federation praised the DVLA for reassuring clubs about issues raised since the closure of local registration offices in 2012. It also emphasised that while the DVLA had explained its position on some issues affecting vehicle registration, the agency had not explained its justification. The FBHVC is advising member clubs to let it know of any DVLA-related issues it encounters.

DVLA spokesman David Whitbread said: ‘The meeting was useful and allowed us to speak directly to our customers and stakeholders

Classic Car Weekly

Location: East Sussex

I have no wish to 'blow the whistle' on this car, but can someone please explain how the DVLA can take its present line on 'specials' and 'cars of indeterminate origin', when it perpetrates this little lie:

A car is built in 1913, taken off the road in 1922, abandoned on a farm, all the metal parts are scrapped during the war as part of the war effort, yet the wooden body survives the years(!), is fitted to a chassis built from parts (from various sources and even different continents) of a completely different make and model (with not a few modern modifications incorporated), and the DVLA reissues the original car's registration number to it...!!!

The car, newly restored - or should that be created - has just come on the market with this 'fully documented' history; a fascinating story, no doubt, even if a few 'apparently's may have been omitted, but really, that just leaves me speechless...

Far be it from me to cast aspersions but there is always the suspicion that other factors may be at play. Perhaps it is a case of not what you know but who you know?

Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more!

Nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, know what I mean?

Location: Derby

I guess the DVLA changes could be the reason for an increase on the number of specials for sale on E-bay
Has there been any further developments regarding these rule changes?
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Stephen,
The only item of interest I have read is a letter in December's "The Automobile" from someone who has a number of historic vehicles without documentation, all of them intended as retirement projects. He has now stopped work on them as a consequence of the DVLA's current rules. There must be quite a few people in this limbo position. I haven't heard mention of any forecast time for a DVLA decision. Perhaps someone who is in the VSCC or other old vehicle club may know more?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Hi Dave,
The situation you describe is the one I'm in.
I bought a box saloon chassis complete with all the major mechanical components but no reg back in the eighties, and subsequently purchased from Rod Yates the very first ulster style body that he produced.
Although not yet in my dotage I got made redundant 2011 am now 59 and looking to overhaul and rebuild as I now have the time, little dreaming that the current situation would occur.
I still have hopes but like the guy you mentioned in the Automobile am on hold as it doesn't seem worth investing my time and further expense as things stand

Steve

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Very sad to see anyone give up on a project Stephen. I live in hope that common sense will get there in the end. I’m in the same boat as others in this one and certainly don’t want to have the disappointment of not driving my creation after all the effort and money put into it. All this uncertainty will push up the value of logbooks and a scrap of metal showing a chassis number

As far as I am aware the DVLA will not issue a V5C until the vehicle is roadworthy and are only interested in a car when it is time to get it registered, at this point any amount of new components and replacement parts may have been fitted and it is almost impossible to determine how much of the car is original and how much of it is new components, this is the situation we find ourselves in at the moment.

The only way out of this situation as far as I can see, is to have the project car inspected by club experts to confirm its origins before the restoration/rebuild has started and by using the current points system a decision can then be made as to how much of the original vehicle actually exists and how much will have to be replaced to make it into a usable vehicle. If the vehicle has enough points it can then be issued with a new V5C document and appropriate numbers, maybe even stating restored,rebuilt or special and the restoration/rebuild can then go ahead.

There will of course still be problem vehicles, but this system should sort out the run of the mill and what you might call genuine bitsa's from the newly made cars that only have one or two original components.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

Why is it that Special building people are crying into cornflakes and waiting to see what is happening? Why doesn’t Special builder everywhere write to Mr David Whale Chief Top Chairman of FBHVC (and is meant to be fighting corner) pressing him to be pulling up socks and breaking pencils, telling DVLA that putting new body on old chassis is part of our great British culture from beginnings of motorcar history and not to be interfered with.

May I alert you fine fellows to this? Government Department for Business Innovation & Skills has section describing responsibilities of National Regulators. This is what they are saying about DVLA:

The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA)’s main responsibilities are to: maintain over 44 million driver records and 36 million vehicle records; collect nearly £6 billion a year in vehicle excise duty; and support the police and intelligence authorities in dealing with vehicle related crime.
DVLA’s purpose is to keep registers of drivers and vehicles and make them as accessible and as flexible as possible to those who have the right to use them. These registers underpin action by DVLA, the police and others to keep road users safe and ensure that the law is respected and observed. The registers also allow us to collect vehicle excise duty effectively and can be used to deliver other departmental and government initiatives.
As a supplement to core operations for all motorists, the DVLA provides specific services to some business customers to help to reduce business costs. Access to services is monitored, but does not require significant formal enforcement activity.

It is being very clear in abundance that DVLA exist to see laws relating to vehicle registrations, motorcar safety and use are being upheld. Nowhere is it being suggested that DVLA may unilaterally make judgements about those laws or interpret them in ways other than how they are presented to motoring public or indeed, make more rules up as they are going along. DVLA principal role is being that of record-keeper.

There’s always official blighter who wants to spoil fun and this they will be doing unless we are reacting accordingly.

Thank you

Babu,
Ok got the message. I will be sending letter to FBHVC shortly. Thank you for info. I should have done this early doors.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Babu

I'm not sure that the FBHVC represent special builders interests at all. They are only interested in standard cars - as they left the factory.

Additionally, inspection or otherwise, the DVLA may consider any car that has not been previously registered and has not been recently imported as a "kit of bits" and therefore falls into the category of needing a DVLA provided VIN and all parts must be over 25 years old.

I'd still be worried if I was building a new special out of a load of accumulated parts.

I don't think I'd be worried at all by a nice Ashley special or similar, even if it didn't have a log book - because the worst case is you'll get a 1950's number.

Pedro

Pedro,
Many cars in the 1920's and 1930's left the factory without bodies,to be fitted with bodies by the numerous coach builders.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Is there any word on how we stand if we have a V5C with correct chassis number but a replacement 2 seater body, but the V5C still has 'saloon' on it? Is it too risky to get this changed to, say, 'tourer' or 'sports'?
thanks .. I'm of a mind just to leave it at the moment, I would be very upset to lose its original registration

Not sure that they've done much for prewar cars at all. Useful if you have a bus though....
They took us down the "No Mot" route and most prewar owners that I speak to didn't want it.

Charles

This whole subject is another example of "improvements" which have not been requested by the customer !!

A civil servant can only sit with their thumb up their b** for so long , then seek to justify their cushy job .

Bonuses all round , chaps .

Merv
End of rant

Location: New Forest

successive governments have demanded more done for less money and with less staff.
You can only do this for so long before services suffer and the staff that are left don't understand the full workings / implications of the service they are trying to provide.
The DVLA situation is a case in point.

Steve V - redundant from the NHS!

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

MP's push for parts talk.

Chair of All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group, Sir Greg Knight MP, has met the Transport Minister to discuss concerns about DVLA attitude to historic vehicles fitted with new parts.
Sir Greg asked for the meeting following complaints received by a number of MP's around the country.
Following the meeting, Transport Minister Andre Jones MP agreed to look into the matter and report back to Sir Greg.
He said: because a historic vehicle has a number of replacements parts should not mean that it ceases to be historic.
There is a distinction to be drawn between a brand new vehicle which is a replica and a genuine historic vehicle which has been with some new parts to keep it on the road.
Sir Greg hopes to have a report from the Minister in December.

Classic Car Weekly 18 November 2015

Location: East Sussex

As usual, people are trying to fight the wrong battle!
DVLA have, on several occasions, accepted that older vehicles may, and indeed will, need replacement parts during the life of the vehicle. They have acknowledged that replacement bodies, and even replacement chassis, are acceptable when applied to existing vehicles on their database.
The problem we now have is that they are now saying that an assembly of parts, even if they are all from the same type and age of vehicle, is no longer acceptable as a datable historic vehicle.In the past a datable chassis frame has been accepted as a datable basis for a reconstructed vehicle; now it is not. I don't have a problem with DVLA clamping down on a completely new recreation, like the Pur Sang Bugattis and Alfa Romeos, but they are now showing their ignorance in motoring history by applying that thinking to vehicles assembled from old parts.

Aaargh! My Captcha letters are bu9aTi!

They have acknowledged that replacement bodies, and even replacement chassis, are acceptable when applied to existing vehicles on their database.

thats what I wanted to hear!

I'm told a large percentage of the FBHVC's funding (without which it may not exist) comes from the prewar car clubs; the clubs who's members are suffering as a result of this situation - withdrawing the funding would probably be a very bad thing as like it or not, the DVLA liaise with them, but we at least need to be getting them to properly fight our corner?

My car fits into this "problem" group, a bitsa I have been rebuilding for 15 years, with a part replacement body (or "non-structural body" as we should now refer to them) - I spoke to them at Beaulieu, they said there shouldn't be problems, but if there are, they are there to help...apparently - my car is years away from needing their help, but others may?
Colin

Location: Kent

"They have acknowledged that replacement bodies, and even replacement chassis, are acceptable when applied to existing vehicles on their database."

Where precisely is that stated?

See the BOC letter on page one of this thread:

"The DVLA have also confirmed that where an owner of a correctly registered historic vehicle needs to replace an original component, due to accident damage, failure, safety or other reasons, then this will not invalidate the vehicle's historic status or registration. They accept that original cars will, during their 'life-span', require replacement components and will be assessed in line with the Agency's leaflet, INF 26."

Mike

With respect, there has been a lot of water under the bridge since BOC sent out the letter. DVLA have not yet responded to the specific question regarding new bodies following the meeting in Swansea earlier this year.

Found this on the DVLA web site today, it should help with bitsa's not sure how it will effect specials though.

Get an age-related registration number

DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:

built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
a true reflection of the marque

The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:

has been inspected
is a true reflection of the marque
is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old

They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts

Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.


Keep a vehicle’s original registration number

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine

For motorbikes:

forks
wheels
engine
gear box

Get a Q registration number

DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number if you don’t meet the conditions for keeping the original registration number.

Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a Q registration number.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

My understanding of that is :
I am using the parts from a Ruby (long deceased) but all parts present and with along standing age related plate, using a special body tub built more than 25 yeras ago but never used, I can build a special with no problem ?.
what do you think?.

Location: Oakley ,Hants

DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts

Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.



Does not make sense
In one hand You will get an aged related number based on the youngest component New or Replica.
In another hand you don't get an aged related number if it includes New or Replica parts.

Location: Middlesex

What we seem to be loosing sight of is the fact that DVLA do not have a category of "Special". To them a car is either new, old, or a reconstructed classic.

If it is new, then everything is straightforward.

If it is old and unmodified, it's a bit more complicated but subject to inspection it should get an age related number.

If it is a reconstructed classic, or "bitsa", the stated criteria is unequivocal - it must be built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle. So, as I read it, putting a two-seater body on a Ruby chassis does not meet the stated criteria, nor does converting a saloon into a van. Even putting on an identical new replica body would seem to be not allowed.

As to whether this makes sense, or will be rigidly enforced is not the question. These are currently the rules of the game, with which we are obliged to comply. Lobbying may get them changed or relaxed, but I'm not holding my breath!

Rick

Location: Deepest Norfolk

The fact that DVLA have neither issued minutes or confirmed any avenues for clarification after the meeting over two months ago is pretty dammed weak. If they set themselves up as judge and jury (as they have) the least they can do is act with a degree of respect and professionalism.

Charles

"Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number."

New or replica 'Parts'. This all hinges around the definition of 'parts'. Would the fitting of one newly made wing mean a refusal? What about a new battery? Or wiring loom?

What about new pistons?

And what if the replica part is thirty years old?

The DVLA is a government (arms-length body?) service provider and I repeat, successive governments have asked all the service providers -NHS, DVLA etc to do more with less.
This means they have reduced staff and those staff left don't have the historic knowledge to fully understand and carry out the work now expected of them.
Whether we like it or not they are probably learning on the job and yes, making it up as they go along! - to some degree.
So we have to hope that those in the old car world purporting to look after our interests have enough sway to guide the DVLA and that the DVLA are willing to listen rather than just dictate.

Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Andrew Jones is my MP and I know him. He does not have technical knowledge but he's not daft and should listen if we explain carefully. I suggest people should campaign him and explain that the old car movement is big, and is generally good honest folk, but there is a problem with how DVLA are interpreting the law and coming up with ambiguous guidelines.

The solution to our problem is to pay road tax.
If we eradicated this daft tax free status and all vehicles covered by the rolling 40 year exemption paid a flat £50 a year the DVLA could fund dedicated resource to understand and police our sector of the motoring world with some surplus for good measure.

In simple terms if you pay nothing you can expect nothing.

Charles

The solution to our problem is to pay road tax.
If we eradicated this daft tax free status and all vehicles covered by the rolling 40 year exemption paid a flat £50 a year the DVLA could fund dedicated resource to understand and police our sector of the motoring world with some surplus for good measure.

In simple terms if you pay nothing you can expect nothing.

Charles[/quote]


I agree 100%, Charles.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".