Maybe so, but the 4 star hotels in those cities look a hell of a lot nicer than the hilton (bland eraly90's decor) and St Davids (just bland with no style). The only service they offer that the Park Plaza or Angel dont is a 24hr chef.
Project alive and taking our time on DD and financial structuring. As stated before I will no longer release much info on here. Sorry.
Dont be rude, at the very least we have a developer who has given us a successful waterfront area, we are lucky that he has said anything at all to us! Thanks for the comments Christopher, good luck whatever the outcome of Bayscape.
You may not have attempted to be rude, but you definately succeded in being so, if i was a developer i would not come back to a website that wrote to me in such a away. Maybe you could have written your thoughts in a more considered manner.
I think we are all just really eager to see bayscape underway! the fact that plenty on here are interested in tall buildings and that the highest building in cardiff was constructed in 1970!! probably means that it's a kinda seeing is believing type thing. As ever I wish Christopher good luck in getting this tremendous development underway, we can then sit back and thoroughly enjoy/discuss its construction ('sad' but true!)
I might be wrong but I think that Christopher realised we are basically a talking shop. All our good intentions with the Forward Cardiff / Caerdydd Ymlaen came to nothing and we have therefore not been able to become an effect lobby group for considered views of redevelopment. And I get the impression we didn't do much in terms of writing to support the application.
So its probably not worth spending time updating us. Commercial reality.
I agree the comments highlighted as "rude" were written in a way that could come across as rude. However, they did make a fair point. Since the announcement of the hotel operator the only news has been the (re?)selection of a contractor for the development. It was reported that an announcement would be made regarding a highly prestigious bar/restaurant operation "soon" months ago. But nothing has happened. So things have gone quiet, and at the least it looks like the schedule has slipped.
Now these things happen - and despite evidence of increasing activity outside of London, investors and funders are still nervous about the regions. Hopefully it'll be all go in a few months. But I am putting a non-negligible probability on the scheme not going ahead. No reflection on Chris or his company. Just the world we live in...
You can't really blame people for being nervous/negative when we've seen many a project proposed in the city only for it not to happen.
Christopher has been kind enough to update us in the past, and again very recently, and maybe he is regretting doing so considering we are, as Dai has said, just a talking shop.
Fingers crossed this won't turn into another Seren/Glass Needle, but I think people forget how long some projects take to actually begin construction, particularly during such a crap financial situation. I know London is picking up as are some regions, but is this region ? For all we know the hotel tenants may be getting itchy feet or the banks may be questioning the hotel market in the area ? Who knows. There could be any number of reasons why it's taking so long to sort out.
Personally I'm not giving up hope just yet and I wish Christopher all the best in seeing the project through to the end.
this is straight from the horses mouth, as opposed to the horses arse which is so often the case on internet forums (or is it fora)
Due diligence due to be completed in two months. Two options, the developer has a preferred option which we will probably all agree with.
Cardiff marine village, the developers other business interest in the capital, is going from strength to strength, with a proposed new marina building on the penarth road site. The council want this to be a statement building due to its location.
The developer sounded upbeat, and most of all, very confident
Anyone have an update on the progression of this project please?
I'm sure Christopher will post a reply saying 'all is well' and 'just sorting out the finances'!
Or has he even given up on this.
I doubt we can expect any updates from him here any more, given that people in the past have seen fit to post crap on his behalf. We just have to wait and see like everyone else.
I am necessarily being sparing on info these days but can advise as follows:
- The capital structuring principles have now been agreed (Jantra's posting was accurate). This step has taken more time than anticipated reflecting the general difficulties in the markets but also our desire to accelerate the project at the right point in the cycle.
- The project has effectively expanded and will now be linked to a second associated project (in Cardiff).
- The commencement of construction will be tied to various commercial milestones agreed with stakeholders and funders. This dovetails well with our various plans.
- We have been expressly cautious not to accelerate the project any faster as the economic background has been poor. We see it (very) slowly improving in 2012 which will (at last) provide the conditions to commence. We are progressing the milestones noted above ahead of then.
- I will not commit to when we can confirm the start date (as the milestones could take anything from 3 - 9 months to complete). However the fact remains that we own the project, land, planning permissions and supporting commercial agreements. It is now therefore a question only of pressing the start button at the appropriate time.
- It is possible now that no residential units will be available for sale. I regret this but we are mindful to de-risk the residential element of the scheme at an early stage and we have a number of interesting propoals with respect to this.
- Zach I appreciate you are sceptical. That's fine. However I would say you do not know of course the level of equity in the project and anything about its supporting appraisal. The DD for all of that has now been completed in the context of the agreed structure.
- Seperately we expect to submit for planning int he next 6 weeks for a new commercial building at Cardiff Marine Village.
I think I speak for many on here when I say I really appreciate you feeding in. Given the panic and speculation in the markets at the moment and all the knock on effects of different scenarios, keeping things steady and ready seems enough work in itself. Good luck!
Thank you. It is not difficult to find panic around these days. You summed it up correctly though. We are advancing cautiously as we want to be sure that when we go the timing is good.
Fantastic i'm pleased i asked now
Thanks for the update chris i hope to here something early next year.
I'm hoping to have news well before next year. Just proceeding with caution.
This seems to have gone quiet. I also checked the Ardmore website under "news" but there were no results reported for Bayscape, or even for "Cardiff".
News soon. We now feel that some of the worst news has flushed through the economic headlines with a (very) gradual improvement from Q3 2012. Accordingly it makes sense to now progress more fully with our plans given construction period timings etc (see post on 2nd Oct 2011)
I will give you a heads up when we make a formal news release.
I've not be paying enough attention, did this happen?:
- Seperately we expect to submit for planning int he next 6 weeks for a new commercial building at Cardiff Marine Village.
We have two applications for Cardiff Marine Village.
1/ Additional dry stack (to double current) capacity and on new land adjacent. Application submitted and pending decision.
2/ The new building. We have not yet submitted as we have been refining the building footprint etc with the planners.
News will all be posted via updated website: www.themarinegroup.co.uk
Which decade are you planning to build it again?
Well said, Jantra. Developments around the world frequently take far longer than originally planned to come to fruition, and then turn up, years later, exactly as originally envisaged. Developers end up with enough money to BE developers by building at the right time.
Probably a bit off hand, true.
But to be honest I couldn't care less one way or another if it gets built at this stage (maybe the Banks are of the same opinion).
I really can't understand why all the media (and on here) announcements. I work with people who are always saying they are going to do something and strangely they never complete the task. The ones who are quiet just get on and do it!
I know its all about confidence in the property development game but look at Ireland and the property developers favourite phrase during the bubble #YOU ARE UNDER BORROWED#
The damage they have done to ordinary people who were sucked up into frenzie and the rest of us who are paying to bail the banks out is just criminal
Christopher's comments on how the worst of the economic news is behind us I find just incredible.
Yes I reckon 5% growth this year, oh and the Eurozone crisis has been now been sorted.
This thread will still be going strong in another 3 years debating whether the time is right.
Everything else aside, and just to be clear on one point. I am not saying the worst of the economic issues are behind us but (significantly) the headlines in six month's time will start to improve as we look towards 2013. WRT to Bayscape it is the economic environment in a little over 2 years that matters. Amongst other things we have been looking at forward indicators for this and one of the main reasons why we have slowed the project until now is that there have been too many signals suggesting a second slow down. That is where we are now.
Thanks Christopher for your response, yesterday and this morning. I'm delighted to see the project is still very much alive.
I was getting a bit worried about this one and could have understood it being cancelled considering how crap things are with the economy.
Fingers crossed for you Christopher, and as always thanks very much for posting here, it is just a forum for a bunch of development geeks after all.
Just thought I'd bump this 3 year OLD tread!
Seriously, I presume that the project is now dead in the water, or maybe Peter Hain could lend his support.
It is worrying.. I don't know what to think. We have contact details for the developer so could always email to see.
Happy for people to contact me outside the forum. Re. status my comment in January remains. The structures are essentially in place but we are waiting for an improvement in forward indicators. I still anticipate this being Q3.
Re. new building at Cardiff Marine Village we are in dicussions with the planners but have not yet submitted. Planners are looking for a statement entry to CDF along The Penarth Road.
Re. new land etc at CMV. We have acquired additional land (doubling the land area) and have secured planning permission to double the size of the dry stacking system. I am sure you'll find the permission on the council's website.
Bayscape remains a focus, however timing is the crucial element here. I won't risk capital until I can see more certainty in the UK. It is incorrect to assume that this somehow alters deliverability in time however.
Sounds like you said a lot, but without really saying much at all.
This project is then essentially on hold until the market improves, and looking at the latest economic calamities with Greece et all, this is probably some way off. Q3 is probably a bit optimistic? Even 2013, I think is too soon.
Forgive my pessimism but we have been here before and with other projects of which have not come to fruition.
Let's just call a spade and spade and say it is on hold until further notice?
Why are people so negative on here? We have a developer that is willing to come to this random little forum and give updates on progress of what will be a fantastic project, and all we do is berate him because things aren't moving fast enough for our liking.
The economy is a mess. The Euro may or may not disintegrate in the coming months. Finance for such progress is probably an absolute bitch to secure. Of course the project is 'on hold' for the time being. As Christopher has said, the hope is that Q3 may see some movement, but I assume (and as Oz states) that this will be heavily influenced by what happens in Greece/Eurozone over the summer.
One of the contributors to the current economic mess we are in was people (both individuals and business) borrowing more than they could realistically afford to repay. Here's a question. If you planned to construct a multimillion pound development, would you just plough ahead irrespective of what the market demands, just for the sake of getting a nice shiny building up. Or, would you perhaps wait for the right time, when the building will be completed on time (think Prospect Place Tower), be fully occupied at completion and generally be a success? It seems that rather than abandoning Cardiff altogether, Christopher is now focusing on more realistic projects for the current climate, and will only commit to 'the big one' when the benefits outweigh the risks.
Perhaps choosing the right option from those above is the reason Christopher is the developer and we are the build-o-philes sat posting on forums about it...
...just a thought...
Everyone is eager for this project to begin, but surely we could be a little more understanding of the reasons for the delay?
Good post George....and a good sense of realism and business sense
Yes the last thing you want is a Bishopsgate Tower ( the pinnacle ). Is it possible to lock this project till september or something?
Ah...but which September?? Might be better to delete the thread and give us all a surprise when it is re-opened!?
It'd save all the moans, groans...and promises....
I agree with George and of course no one expects a project to go ahead without adequate funding.
I am a straight talker and hate it when people beat around the bush.
This project is and will be fantastic, but let's not tip toe around to keep the forumer's happy, let's say this is on hold until the economy recovers.
I just could not resist this "told you so!" moment.
Drove past the site and saw the ever so sad Bayscape sign, a little worse for wear. I just wondered how long ago had it being first discussed?
Three Years (and one day!) since the first post on this thread.
I don't think a lot has changed as far as the economics, maybe a little worse than 2009.
On another "announce it 50 times project" any news on the bay peninsula development? The Echo seemed to indicate project was underway. I did see some test drilling next to the new swimming pool today, but might not even be connected.
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